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InnleggSkrevet: 18 Nov 2005 22:54:18    Tittel: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

I am looking for a description of the DAHL coat of arms. Dahl from Norway.

I have heard also the Dahl were linked to the Smor familly. Can you help ?

Thank you

--
Harald de MAILLARD
harald.de.maillard@free.fr
Généalogie de la famille Maillard (de)
http://www.famille-de-maillard.com
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InnleggSkrevet: 19 Nov 2005 01:34:23    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 22:54:18 +0100, Harald de MAILLARD <harald.de.maillard@free.fr> wrote:
Sitat:
I am looking for a description of the DAHL coat of arms. Dahl from Norway.

Generally speaking, "coats of arms" belong to individuals, not families.
Do you have a fylke to put Dahl in some sort of context?
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InnleggSkrevet: 19 Nov 2005 14:27:42    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

With most of the researches I have carried out over the years on the subject
of heraldry, most or many families, noble or not, in Europe, possess a coat
of arms. Individuals may personlise their own from the original coat of arms
by putting something else. In that way I will say it belongs to families.

Fylke, I do not understand.

If your question is what is the use or the need, I am after the coat of arms
of the Dahl from Norway to illustrate something. My great grand mother was a
Dahl and my grand mother, many times spoke about that linked between the
Dahl and the Smor. I am trying to find out, it there was a coat of arms for
that family and which one.

--
Harald de MAILLARD
harald.de.maillard@free.fr
Généalogie de la famille Maillard (de)
http://www.famille-de-maillard.com
"Dave Hinz" <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
3u7a8fFvumdtU4@individual.net...
Sitat:
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 22:54:18 +0100, Harald de MAILLARD
harald.de.maillard@free.fr> wrote:
I am looking for a description of the DAHL coat of arms. Dahl from
Norway.

Generally speaking, "coats of arms" belong to individuals, not families.
Do you have a fylke to put Dahl in some sort of context?
Til Toppen
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InnleggSkrevet: 19 Nov 2005 15:24:26    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:27:42 +0100, Harald de MAILLARD <harald.de.maillard@free.fr> wrote:
Sitat:
With most of the researches I have carried out over the years on the subject
of heraldry, most or many families, noble or not, in Europe, possess a coat
of arms. Individuals may personlise their own from the original coat of arms
by putting something else. In that way I will say it belongs to families.

Fylke, I do not understand.

Roughly equivalent to "county" in the US. A collection of parishes, an
administrative unit.

Sitat:
If your question is what is the use or the need, I am after the coat of arms
of the Dahl from Norway to illustrate something.

Ah, but where in Norway, and what Dahl specifically?

Sitat:
My great grand mother was a
Dahl and my grand mother, many times spoke about that linked between the
Dahl and the Smor. I am trying to find out, it there was a coat of arms for
that family and which one.

There's probably someone who will sell you one, sure, but you need much
more information before you know if it's a valid coat of arms for one of
your ancestors. it won't, of course, be validly yours.
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InnleggSkrevet: 19 Nov 2005 16:30:58    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Harald de MAILLARD wrote:
Sitat:
With most of the researches I have carried out over the years on the subject
of heraldry, most or many families, noble or not, in Europe, possess a coat
of arms. Individuals may personlise their own from the original coat of arms
by putting something else. In that way I will say it belongs to families.

Very few families or individuals - if any - in Norway really have a coat
of arms.


Sitat:

Fylke, I do not understand.

If your question is what is the use or the need, I am after the coat of arms
of the Dahl from Norway

There are dozens of Dahl families in Norway; about 12000 with surname
Dahl (3000 with Dahle, 3000 with Dale).
Most Norwegian surnames are either "frozen" patronyms (like Olsen,
Hansen, etc.) or farm names, like Da(h)l. A quick search showed
38 farms called Da(h)l - which is a minimum number. For each farm
name, there are probably 3-6 families with that name.

Hence, "the Dahl from Norway" is not very meaningful.


to illustrate something. My great grand mother was a
Sitat:
Dahl and my grand mother, many times spoke about that linked between the
Dahl and the Smor.

Links to medeval noble families are often based more on belief and
desire than real documented facts. (Your case may be different, but
is then a rare exception.)

I am trying to find out, it there was a coat of arms for
Sitat:
that family and which one.
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InnleggSkrevet: 19 Nov 2005 18:54:09    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

"Harald de MAILLARD" <harald.de.maillard@free.fr> wrote in
news:437f2865$0$21232$626a54ce@news.free.fr:

Sitat:
With most of the researches I have carried out over the years on the
subject of heraldry, most or many families, noble or not, in Europe,
possess a coat of arms.

There are 45 separate countries in Europe. You will find a multitude of
different heraldic traditions - but I would be very surprised indeed if
you can find a single country where "most" individuals are entitled to
wear a coat of arms due to some ancestor that had a coat of arms.

What countries have you done research in ?

Sitat:
My great grand mother was a Dahl and my grand mother, many times spoke
about that linked between the Dahl and the Smor. I am trying to find
out, it there was a coat of arms for that family and which one.

"The Dahl family" is an utterly meaningless concept in Norway. There
are many thousand people named Dahl - which just means "valley". No
shortage of valleys in a mountainous country ...

If you want to get some made up coat of arms, go ahead. But you are not
going to find anything real by pursuing the idea that you descend from
some person named Dahl in the 1800s sometime, and that this leads back
to some old coat of arms :-)

Grin,
Stein
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InnleggSkrevet: 19 Nov 2005 19:53:10    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

I don't understand why your answer is so aggresive.

I am simply starting to look into my scandinavian roots and this is where I
start from, I ask simple questions, I have to start somewhere. I know
nothing about norway or denmark. And this is why I am here. To find
information on how to do my tracks.



Sitat:
With most of the researches I have carried out over the years on the
subject of heraldry, most or many families, noble or not, in Europe,
possess a coat of arms.

There are 45 separate countries in Europe. You will find a multitude of
different heraldic traditions - but I would be very surprised indeed if
you can find a single country where "most" individuals are entitled to
wear a coat of arms due to some ancestor that had a coat of arms.

What countries have you done research in ?

Are you being patronising ? France obviously, England, Italy, Poland & Spain
a lot, and by interest I have looked over 5 or 6 more countries. Does this
change anything ?


Sitat:
My great grand mother was a Dahl and my grand mother, many times spoke
about that linked between the Dahl and the Smor. I am trying to find
out, it there was a coat of arms for that family and which one.

"The Dahl family" is an utterly meaningless concept in Norway. There
are many thousand people named Dahl - which just means "valley". No
shortage of valleys in a mountainous country ...

Now I know something.

Sitat:

If you want to get some made up coat of arms, go ahead. But you are not
going to find anything real by pursuing the idea that you descend from
some person named Dahl in the 1800s sometime, and that this leads back
to some old coat of arms :-)

Grin,
Stein


I do descend from the Dahl, this is a fact. The rest and the fact it could
leads back to something else does not interest me in the way you seem to
think. I have done heraldic and genealogy for the past 20 years and I have
never invented something. I am not interested in making up coat of arms, I
leave this to others.
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InnleggSkrevet: 19 Nov 2005 19:54:35    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Thank you for your comments and help.

--
Harald de MAILLARD
harald.de.maillard@free.fr
Généalogie de la famille Maillard (de)
http://www.famille-de-maillard.com
""Ivar S. Ertesvåg"" <ivar.s.ertevag@ntnu.no> a écrit dans le message de
news: dlngfc$2qc$1@orkan.itea.ntnu.no...
Sitat:
Harald de MAILLARD wrote:
With most of the researches I have carried out over the years on the
subject of heraldry, most or many families, noble or not, in Europe,
possess a coat of arms. Individuals may personlise their own from the
original coat of arms by putting something else. In that way I will say
it belongs to families.

Very few families or individuals - if any - in Norway really have a coat
of arms.



Fylke, I do not understand.

If your question is what is the use or the need, I am after the coat of
arms of the Dahl from Norway

There are dozens of Dahl families in Norway; about 12000 with surname Dahl
(3000 with Dahle, 3000 with Dale).
Most Norwegian surnames are either "frozen" patronyms (like Olsen, Hansen,
etc.) or farm names, like Da(h)l. A quick search showed
38 farms called Da(h)l - which is a minimum number. For each farm
name, there are probably 3-6 families with that name.

Hence, "the Dahl from Norway" is not very meaningful.


to illustrate something. My great grand mother was a
Dahl and my grand mother, many times spoke about that linked between the
Dahl and the Smor.

Links to medeval noble families are often based more on belief and
desire than real documented facts. (Your case may be different, but
is then a rare exception.)

I am trying to find out, it there was a coat of arms for
that family and which one.
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InnleggSkrevet: 19 Nov 2005 19:56:49    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

I shall look into my documents and come back with the name of the locations.

Thanks.

--
Harald de MAILLARD
harald.de.maillard@free.fr
Généalogie de la famille Maillard (de)
http://www.famille-de-maillard.com
"Dave Hinz" <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
3u8qspF102ddkU6@individual.net...
Sitat:
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:27:42 +0100, Harald de MAILLARD
harald.de.maillard@free.fr> wrote:
With most of the researches I have carried out over the years on the
subject
of heraldry, most or many families, noble or not, in Europe, possess a
coat
of arms. Individuals may personlise their own from the original coat of
arms
by putting something else. In that way I will say it belongs to families.

Fylke, I do not understand.

Roughly equivalent to "county" in the US. A collection of parishes, an
administrative unit.

If your question is what is the use or the need, I am after the coat of
arms
of the Dahl from Norway to illustrate something.

Ah, but where in Norway, and what Dahl specifically?

My great grand mother was a
Dahl and my grand mother, many times spoke about that linked between the
Dahl and the Smor. I am trying to find out, it there was a coat of arms
for
that family and which one.

There's probably someone who will sell you one, sure, but you need much
more information before you know if it's a valid coat of arms for one of
your ancestors. it won't, of course, be validly yours.
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InnleggSkrevet: 19 Nov 2005 20:03:56    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 19:53:10 +0100, Harald de MAILLARD <harald.de.maillard@free.fr> wrote:
Sitat:
I don't understand why your answer is so aggresive.

Neither his, nor your, first language is English, yes? Subtelty will be
lost when 3 languages are involved.

Sitat:
I am simply starting to look into my scandinavian roots and this is where I
start from, I ask simple questions, I have to start somewhere. I know
nothing about norway or denmark. And this is why I am here. To find
information on how to do my tracks.

That's a good start. What he says is substantially true. Do you have
anything at all to indicate which valley in Norway your Dahl family came
from?

Sitat:
If you want to get some made up coat of arms, go ahead. But you are not
going to find anything real by pursuing the idea that you descend from
some person named Dahl in the 1800s sometime, and that this leads back
to some old coat of arms :-)

I do descend from the Dahl, this is a fact.

From _A_ Dahl family, sure.

Sitat:
The rest and the fact it could
leads back to something else does not interest me in the way you seem to
think. I have done heraldic and genealogy for the past 20 years and I have
never invented something. I am not interested in making up coat of arms, I
leave this to others.

What actually is your question, please? I've seemed to see it move
through 3 or 4 of them.
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InnleggSkrevet: 19 Nov 2005 20:16:23    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Sitat:

Neither his, nor your, first language is English, yes? Subtelty will be
lost when 3 languages are involved.

My first is French. So we are mixing languages Smile)) I appreciate you are
trying to calm the situation. Thanks.


Sitat:

I am simply starting to look into my scandinavian roots and this is where
I
start from, I ask simple questions, I have to start somewhere. I know
nothing about norway or denmark. And this is why I am here. To find
information on how to do my tracks.

That's a good start. What he says is substantially true. Do you have
anything at all to indicate which valley in Norway your Dahl family came
from?

I have names of birth places, not valley or counties. The first cousin of my

grand mother was the book writer Roald DAHL. I have much information, I need
to do a condense it first.


Sitat:
If you want to get some made up coat of arms, go ahead. But you are not
going to find anything real by pursuing the idea that you descend from
some person named Dahl in the 1800s sometime, and that this leads back
to some old coat of arms :-)

I do descend from the Dahl, this is a fact.

From _A_ Dahl family, sure.

The rest and the fact it could
leads back to something else does not interest me in the way you seem to
think. I have done heraldic and genealogy for the past 20 years and I
have
never invented something. I am not interested in making up coat of arms,
I
leave this to others.

What actually is your question, please? I've seemed to see it move
through 3 or 4 of them.


My question or my quest, is to find out if those Dahl had a coat of arms or
not. And if they did, to identify it.

Harald.
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InnleggSkrevet: 19 Nov 2005 22:39:41    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

"Harald de MAILLARD" <harald.de.maillard@free.fr> wrote in
news:437f74a7$0$5998$636a15ce@news.free.fr:

Sitat:
I don't understand why your answer is so aggresive.

Cultural differences combined with the fact that your
English is just good enough to make me think you would
actually understand the important difference between
*the Dahls* and *a Dahl*.

A good tactic if you want a Scandinavian to help you
is to *start* by admitting how little you know about
the subject and then asking for information.

Nobody would have jumped you if you had written : "My
great grandmother was from Norway, and her family name
before marriage was Dahl. She used to say she was des-
cended from a Norwegian noble family named Smor. How
can I find out more about her ancestors and whether
they had a coat of arms ?".

Instead you started out by apparently insisting that
there *must* be a coat of arms for your ancestor and
at the same time apparently insisting that there is
only one family named Dahl in Norway, despite the fact
that you "know nothing about Norway or Denmark".

Norwegians tend to make allowances for foreigners not
knowing much about Norwegian culture, language, history,
genealogy or heraldry. We all know that Norway is a small
country in a big world.

But if you come across as arrogant and ignorant at the
same time, you will tend to get a strong negative reaction
from many Norwegians,including me :-)

Mind you - I am *not* saying that you actually *are*
arrogant and ignorant. I am just saying that to me, you
*appeared* to be arrogant and ignorant at the same time.

Now that we have cleared that up, lets get back to trying
to communicate better.


Sitat:
I am simply starting to look into my scandinavian roots and this is
where I start from, I ask simple questions, I have to start somewhere.
I know nothing about norway or denmark. And this is why I am here. To
find information on how to do my tracks.

Fair enough.

Sitat:
spoke about that linked between the Dahl and the Smor. I am trying
to find out, it there was a coat of arms for that family and which
one.

"The Dahl family" is an utterly meaningless concept in Norway. There
are many thousand people named Dahl - which just means "valley". No
shortage of valleys in a mountainous country ...

Now I know something.

May I respectfully suggest that you start by learning a little about
how to do general genealogy research in Norway before you start looking
for a coat of Arms ?

A couple of good places to start, a sensible combination of search
terms on www.google.com will give you more places to start:

1) John Føllesdals webpage on rootsweb:
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~norway/

2) The DIS (Computers in Genealogy Association in Norway) web page:
http://www.disnorge.no/genress/index.php


Sitat:
I do descend from the Dahl, this is a fact.

You do descend from *a* Dahl. In English there is a big difference
between "descend from a Dahl" and "descend from the Dahls".

Smile,
Stein
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InnleggSkrevet: 20 Nov 2005 10:55:22    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Stein R wrote:
Sitat:
"Harald de MAILLARD" <harald.de.maillard@free.fr> wrote in
news:437f74a7$0$5998$636a15ce@news.free.fr:


I don't understand why your answer is so aggresive.


Cultural differences combined with the fact that your
English is just good enough to make me think you would
actually understand the important difference between
*the Dahls* and *a Dahl*.

A good tactic if you want a Scandinavian to help you
is to *start* by admitting how little you know about
the subject and then asking for information.

Nobody would have jumped you if you had written : "My
great grandmother was from Norway, and her family name
before marriage was Dahl. She used to say she was des-
cended from a Norwegian noble family named Smor. How
can I find out more about her ancestors and whether
they had a coat of arms ?".

Instead you started out by apparently insisting that
there *must* be a coat of arms for your ancestor and
at the same time apparently insisting that there is
only one family named Dahl in Norway, despite the fact
that you "know nothing about Norway or Denmark".

Norwegians tend to make allowances for foreigners not
knowing much about Norwegian culture, language, history,
genealogy or heraldry. We all know that Norway is a small
country in a big world.

But if you come across as arrogant and ignorant at the
same time, you will tend to get a strong negative reaction
from many Norwegians,including me :-)

Mind you - I am *not* saying that you actually *are*
arrogant and ignorant. I am just saying that to me, you
*appeared* to be arrogant and ignorant at the same time.

Now that we have cleared that up, lets get back to trying
to communicate better.



I am simply starting to look into my scandinavian roots and this is
where I start from, I ask simple questions, I have to start somewhere.
I know nothing about norway or denmark. And this is why I am here. To
find information on how to do my tracks.


Fair enough.


spoke about that linked between the Dahl and the Smor. I am trying
to find out, it there was a coat of arms for that family and which
one.

"The Dahl family" is an utterly meaningless concept in Norway. There
are many thousand people named Dahl - which just means "valley". No
shortage of valleys in a mountainous country ...

Now I know something.


May I respectfully suggest that you start by learning a little about
how to do general genealogy research in Norway before you start looking
for a coat of Arms ?

A couple of good places to start, a sensible combination of search
terms on www.google.com will give you more places to start:

1) John Føllesdals webpage on rootsweb:
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~norway/

2) The DIS (Computers in Genealogy Association in Norway) web page:
http://www.disnorge.no/genress/index.php



I do descend from the Dahl, this is a fact.


You do descend from *a* Dahl. In English there is a big difference
between "descend from a Dahl" and "descend from the Dahls".


I skipped this thread so far because I only know about UK heraldry
and our FAQ

and because only naive internet users think there must be a coat of arms
for every surname
http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/mfaq

The Most Frequently Asked Question on rec.heraldry is:

"My name is Smith, what are my arms?"

A common variant is:

"Some guy in a mall told me he could look up my name in a database
and tell me my family arms? Can I trust him?"

The Second Most Frequently Asked Question on rec.heraldry is:

"My coat of arms contains a widget azure. What is the significance of a
widget in heraldry?"

This posting answers these questions. We've noticed that these questions
are usually asked by people from the US, so the answers are intended to fit
the US context. http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/mfaq

http://www.heraldica.org/questions.htm
http://www.google.com/Top/Society/Genealogy/Heraldry/

=========0

SCANDINAVIAN-NOBILITY. A mailing list for anyone with a genealogical,
cultural or historical interest in the Scandinavian nobility (Denmark,
Norway and Sweden). To subscribe send "subscribe" to
scandinavian-nobility-l-request@rootsweb.com (mail mode) or
scandinavian-nobility-d-request@rootsweb.com (digest mode).


==================

Societas Heraldica Scandinavica ( Heraldisk Selskab) er på vej med ny
hjemmeside for hele Norden. Ronny Andersen, der er medredaktør af
hjemmesiden, tegner et billede af selskabet


http://www.heraldik.org/

Welcome to Societas Heraldica Scandinavica (SHS), the heraldry
society, which since 1959 has united heraldry enthusiasts in Denmark,
Finland, Iceland, Norway och Sweden.
Items on this homepage might come in either of the Nordic languages or
in English.

The society journal Heraldisk Tidsskrift is published twice a year(march
& october) with articles in either of the Nordic languages and summaries
in either English, French or German. In addition, the society publishes
an occational series, Heraldiske Studier, with larger studies in heraldry.

SHS arranges konferences, excursions and lectures. In cooperation with
the Academie Internationale de l'héraldique it has hosted international
conferences in Stockholm (5th, 1960), Copenhagen (14th, 1980), Helsinki
(16th, 1984), and Uppsala (20th, 1992).
Nordic heraldic conferences have recently been introduced in Åbo/Turku
(2003) and in Kalmar (2001). The next will be held in Oslo 2005.

Coming events in the Nordic area


good luck

Hugh W
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InnleggSkrevet: 20 Nov 2005 11:51:31    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

another topic
http://www.cappelen-krefting.no/hans/housemarksnorway.html

"Our thousands and thousands of house marks represent a rich cultural
treasure. Many house marks look like the runes (our eldest script)
others are international and wide spread symbols like the pentagram and
the Venus sign. The house marks were used in connection with farming
and hunting, craft and trade, religion and magic. Some are very simple
and others are elaborate and complicated. "

I shall here give a brief survey. My main sources are four Norwegian
books: (1) Norwegian medieval seals (NS), (2) house marks from the
district Sunnmoere (Strømme), (3) house marks from the district Voss
(Kindem) and (4) merchants’ marks of Bergen (Koren Wiberg). A literature
list is printed in BUMERKER I NORGE.

http://www.cappelen-krefting.no/hans/bumerkerinorge.htm

so a seal is another possibility

http://www.rootsweb.com/%7Ednkcen/FAQ/1000surnames.html


number 53 Dahl 7,222 people with this surname in Denmark on January 1 2004

so all of those are very very unlikely to be noblemen

http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library/default.aspx

FINALLY

http://www.ancestry.com/learn/facts/Fact.aspx?&fid=10&ln=dahl

dahl
Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, North German, and Jewish (Ashkenazic): from
any of the medieval and modern forms of Germanic dala-, Old Norse dalr,
‘valley’.

Throughout Norway and elsewhere in Scandinavia this is a common farm name.

In some cases it is a habitational name from places in Germany named
Dahl or Dahle, from the same word.

As a Jewish family name this is a habitational name or an ornamental
adoption.

Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press, ISBN
0-19-508137-4

that is it :-(

Hugh W
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InnleggSkrevet: 20 Nov 2005 17:38:57    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Sat, 19 Nov 2005 20:16:23 +0100, "Harald de MAILLARD"
<harald.de.maillard@free.fr>; <437f7a17$0$5985$636a15ce@news.free.fr>;
<soc.genealogy.nordic>:

Sitat:
I have names of birth places, not valley or counties. The first cousin of my
grand mother was the book writer Roald DAHL.

Well, then, i think many might be able to help you if you gave some
person name / place name combinations.
As Stein and some other norwegians have been trying to tell you, is that
there are _many_ families with Dahl (or Dal) as family names in Norway,
and they are not necessarily related to each other.
The writer Roald Dahl lived in Britain, but had ancestors in Norway,
AFAIK. You seem to have had at least one great-great-grandparent in
Norway, then. His or her name and birth place might be a good start for
someone able to help you to find a source for further investigation.
--
/Jan
<janpharo@supernett.no>
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InnleggSkrevet: 20 Nov 2005 17:42:13    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:51:31 +0000, Hugh Watkins <hugh.watkins@gmail.com>;
<43805510$0$41147$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>; <soc.genealogy.nordic>:

Sitat:
so all of those are very very unlikely to be noblemen

There are no "noblemen" at all in Norway. Nobility was discontinued very
many years ago.
--
/Jan
<janpharo@supernett.no>
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InnleggSkrevet: 21 Nov 2005 10:13:13    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

To Harald.
Could you please inform us about your mothers parents name, so it would be
possible to try to find your ancestors?
Roald Dahls father was Harald Dahl, and I guess that it was Harald that was
your mothers brother?
After what I have found- Harald Dahl was from a farm outside of Oslo and
emigrated around 1900.

My suggestion is that we forget the "coat of arm question" until there is
found some person in this family tree that had a coat of arms.

Best regards
Øystein
"Jan" <address@nospam.no.invalid> skrev i melding
news:1p91o1p4lv1975765rtb2onpfvrh0itt7m@4ax.com...
Sitat:
Sun, 20 Nov 2005 10:51:31 +0000, Hugh Watkins <hugh.watkins@gmail.com>;
43805510$0$41147$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>; <soc.genealogy.nordic>:

so all of those are very very unlikely to be noblemen

There are no "noblemen" at all in Norway. Nobility was discontinued very
many years ago.
--
/Jan
janpharo@supernett.no
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InnleggSkrevet: 25 Nov 2005 20:05:52    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

thank you to all of you for your help.

Dear Øystein,

Here is my details as requested. I have more if needed, I have put there
the minimum to explain my genealogy. I have used a genealogy classification
used in France, I do not know If you are use to this. The commun ancester to
everybody has the N°1 and then the chidren are following with the number of
their father or mother + 1,2,3... Number of their place in birth.

1 X Dahl married to X

1.1 Olga Dahl (norway) married to Peter Christian Cilius Hansen (Denmark)
(my great grand parents)

1.2 .Harald Dahl, born in 1863 in Sarpsborg, province de Østfold ( Norway)
and was married to Sofie Hesselberg

1.3 Oscar Dahl married to Thérèse Biot ( Oscar left Norway to France)

1.1.1 Thérèse Ragna Hansen born on the 20/04/1907 in Frederikshaval
(Denmark) married to Yves de Maillard (my grand parents)

1.1.1.1 Olga de Maillard

1.1.1.2 Christian de Maillard

1.1.1.3 Guy de Maillard married to Chantal Filhol ( my parents)

1.1.1.4 Erik de Maillard

1.1.1.3.1 Harald de Maillard (Me)

1.1.1.3.2 Axel de Maillard ( One of my brothers)

1.1.1.3.1.1 and 2 and 3 will be my sons, Hugo, Magnus and Félix.



1.2.1 Roald Dahl born on the 13/09/1916 in LLandaff, Wales, GB, married to
Sofie Hesselberg

1.2.2 Else Dahl

1.2.3 Alfhild Dahl

1.2.4 Asta Dahl



1.3.1 Erik Dahl married to Denise Babinet. From there I have everything as
this branch became french. My Grand Mother moved to France to Oscar's place
when her parents died. She then met my grand father...

As you can see the commun ancester is the N°1 X Dahl. This X dahl was at the
same time a grand father for Roald Dahl and a grand father for Thérèse
Hansen my grand mother.

I hope this is understandable Smile))

Best Regards,

Harald.



--
Harald de MAILLARD
harald.de.maillard@free.fr
Généalogie de la famille Maillard (de)
http://www.famille-de-maillard.com


"Øystein Lillegaard" <olillegaat@c2i.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
Jcggf.8039$qE.1810199@juliett.dax.net...
Sitat:
To Harald.
Could you please inform us about your mothers parents name, so it would be
possible to try to find your ancestors?
Roald Dahls father was Harald Dahl, and I guess that it was Harald that
was your mothers brother?
After what I have found- Harald Dahl was from a farm outside of Oslo and
emigrated around 1900.

My suggestion is that we forget the "coat of arm question" until there is
found some person in this family tree that had a coat of arms.

Best regards
Øystein
Til Toppen
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Gjest





InnleggSkrevet: 26 Nov 2005 08:20:15    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Do you have any year for the birth of Olga, estemated or exact?
There is a person named Harald Dahl living in Sarpsborg in one of the
censuses (1865), and Harald has at this time a sister named Klara?
In case you don't know the birth year of Olga, do you know if she is older
then Harald?

Øystein



"Harald de MAILLARD" <harald.de.maillard@free.fr> skrev i melding
news:43876096$0$20886$636a55ce@news.free.fr...
Sitat:

thank you to all of you for your help.

Dear Øystein,

Here is my details as requested. I have more if needed, I have put there
the minimum to explain my genealogy. I have used a genealogy
classification used in France, I do not know If you are use to this. The
commun ancester to everybody has the N°1 and then the chidren are
following with the number of their father or mother + 1,2,3... Number of
their place in birth.

1 X Dahl married to X

1.1 Olga Dahl (norway) married to Peter Christian Cilius Hansen (Denmark)
(my great grand parents)

1.2 .Harald Dahl, born in 1863 in Sarpsborg, province de Østfold ( Norway)
and was married to Sofie Hesselberg

1.3 Oscar Dahl married to Thérèse Biot ( Oscar left Norway to France)

1.1.1 Thérèse Ragna Hansen born on the 20/04/1907 in Frederikshaval
(Denmark) married to Yves de Maillard (my grand parents)

1.1.1.1 Olga de Maillard

1.1.1.2 Christian de Maillard

1.1.1.3 Guy de Maillard married to Chantal Filhol ( my parents)

1.1.1.4 Erik de Maillard

1.1.1.3.1 Harald de Maillard (Me)

1.1.1.3.2 Axel de Maillard ( One of my brothers)

1.1.1.3.1.1 and 2 and 3 will be my sons, Hugo, Magnus and Félix.



1.2.1 Roald Dahl born on the 13/09/1916 in LLandaff, Wales, GB, married to
Sofie Hesselberg

1.2.2 Else Dahl

1.2.3 Alfhild Dahl

1.2.4 Asta Dahl



1.3.1 Erik Dahl married to Denise Babinet. From there I have everything as
this branch became french. My Grand Mother moved to France to Oscar's
place when her parents died. She then met my grand father...

As you can see the commun ancester is the N°1 X Dahl. This X dahl was at
the same time a grand father for Roald Dahl and a grand father for Thérèse
Hansen my grand mother.

I hope this is understandable Smile))

Best Regards,

Harald.



--
Harald de MAILLARD
harald.de.maillard@free.fr
Généalogie de la famille Maillard (de)
http://www.famille-de-maillard.com


"Øystein Lillegaard" <olillegaat@c2i.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
Jcggf.8039$qE.1810199@juliett.dax.net...
To Harald.
Could you please inform us about your mothers parents name, so it would
be possible to try to find your ancestors?
Roald Dahls father was Harald Dahl, and I guess that it was Harald that
was your mothers brother?
After what I have found- Harald Dahl was from a farm outside of Oslo and
emigrated around 1900.

My suggestion is that we forget the "coat of arm question" until there is
found some person in this family tree that had a coat of arms.

Best regards
Øystein

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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Nov 2005 19:09:01    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Harald,

Regarding Harald Dahl; the candidate Øystein indicates in the census
of 1865 for the town Sarpsborg is shown with family here:

<http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1865&knr=0102&ke nr=0272&bnr=0272&lnr=000>

Regarding Harald Dahls wife Sofie Hesselberg, I believe a middle name
has been noted as Magdalene, see for example:

<http://www.roalddahlfans.com/timelines.php>

I have have previously noted (also from some web-publication) that she
came from a middle class/burgeois family in Oslo (previously also
called Kristiania). One possible candidate can be found in the census
of 1900 for Kristiania:

<http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1900&knr=0301&ke nr=275&bnr=0019&lnr=01>

Please, use these references as indications of possible candidates
only, these may be completely different persons. However, these
families seems worth noting down for further searching.

I wonder where Harald and Sofie Magdalene married (presumably in
1911)? A marriage record from Norway would most likely give the name
of the the fathers. I don't know what it would be like it they married
in the UK.

Regards,
Jan-Ove Askautrud




On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:05:52 +0100, "Harald de MAILLARD"
<harald.de.maillard@free.fr> wrote:

Sitat:

thank you to all of you for your help.

Dear Øystein,

Here is my details as requested. I have more if needed, I have put there
the minimum to explain my genealogy. I have used a genealogy classification
used in France, I do not know If you are use to this. The commun ancester to
everybody has the N°1 and then the chidren are following with the number of
their father or mother + 1,2,3... Number of their place in birth.

1 X Dahl married to X

1.1 Olga Dahl (norway) married to Peter Christian Cilius Hansen (Denmark)
(my great grand parents)

1.2 .Harald Dahl, born in 1863 in Sarpsborg, province de Østfold ( Norway)
and was married to Sofie Hesselberg

1.3 Oscar Dahl married to Thérèse Biot ( Oscar left Norway to France)

1.1.1 Thérèse Ragna Hansen born on the 20/04/1907 in Frederikshaval
(Denmark) married to Yves de Maillard (my grand parents)

1.1.1.1 Olga de Maillard

1.1.1.2 Christian de Maillard

1.1.1.3 Guy de Maillard married to Chantal Filhol ( my parents)

1.1.1.4 Erik de Maillard

1.1.1.3.1 Harald de Maillard (Me)

1.1.1.3.2 Axel de Maillard ( One of my brothers)

1.1.1.3.1.1 and 2 and 3 will be my sons, Hugo, Magnus and Félix.



1.2.1 Roald Dahl born on the 13/09/1916 in LLandaff, Wales, GB, married to
Sofie Hesselberg

1.2.2 Else Dahl

1.2.3 Alfhild Dahl

1.2.4 Asta Dahl



1.3.1 Erik Dahl married to Denise Babinet. From there I have everything as
this branch became french. My Grand Mother moved to France to Oscar's place
when her parents died. She then met my grand father...

As you can see the commun ancester is the N°1 X Dahl. This X dahl was at the
same time a grand father for Roald Dahl and a grand father for Thérèse
Hansen my grand mother.

I hope this is understandable Smile))

Best Regards,

Harald.
Til Toppen
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Gjest





InnleggSkrevet: 26 Nov 2005 19:21:43    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

And we find the same Dahl-family from Sarpsborg some years later in
Kristiania in the census of 1900 for Kristiania, here with a daughter
Olga.

http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1900&knr=0301&ken r=024&bnr=0007&lnr=03

Still, I advise to use records with caution. I cannot be sure if this
is the right Dahl-family. Dahl is a very common name is Norway. The
first names Harald and Olga are also quite common.

JOA.

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:09:01 +0100, Jan-Ove Askautrud
<jaskautrud@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sitat:
Harald,

Regarding Harald Dahl; the candidate Øystein indicates in the census
of 1865 for the town Sarpsborg is shown with family here:

http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1865&knr=0102&ken r=0272&bnr=0272&lnr=000

Regarding Harald Dahls wife Sofie Hesselberg, I believe a middle name
has been noted as Magdalene, see for example:

http://www.roalddahlfans.com/timelines.php

I have have previously noted (also from some web-publication) that she
came from a middle class/burgeois family in Oslo (previously also
called Kristiania). One possible candidate can be found in the census
of 1900 for Kristiania:

http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1900&knr=0301&ken r=275&bnr=0019&lnr=01

Please, use these references as indications of possible candidates
only, these may be completely different persons. However, these
families seems worth noting down for further searching.

I wonder where Harald and Sofie Magdalene married (presumably in
1911)? A marriage record from Norway would most likely give the name
of the the fathers. I don't know what it would be like it they married
in the UK.

Regards,
Jan-Ove Askautrud




On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:05:52 +0100, "Harald de MAILLARD"
harald.de.maillard@free.fr> wrote:


thank you to all of you for your help.

Dear Øystein,

Here is my details as requested. I have more if needed, I have put there
the minimum to explain my genealogy. I have used a genealogy classification
used in France, I do not know If you are use to this. The commun ancester to
everybody has the N°1 and then the chidren are following with the number of
their father or mother + 1,2,3... Number of their place in birth.

1 X Dahl married to X

1.1 Olga Dahl (norway) married to Peter Christian Cilius Hansen (Denmark)
(my great grand parents)

1.2 .Harald Dahl, born in 1863 in Sarpsborg, province de Østfold ( Norway)
and was married to Sofie Hesselberg

1.3 Oscar Dahl married to Thérèse Biot ( Oscar left Norway to France)

1.1.1 Thérèse Ragna Hansen born on the 20/04/1907 in Frederikshaval
(Denmark) married to Yves de Maillard (my grand parents)

1.1.1.1 Olga de Maillard

1.1.1.2 Christian de Maillard

1.1.1.3 Guy de Maillard married to Chantal Filhol ( my parents)

1.1.1.4 Erik de Maillard

1.1.1.3.1 Harald de Maillard (Me)

1.1.1.3.2 Axel de Maillard ( One of my brothers)

1.1.1.3.1.1 and 2 and 3 will be my sons, Hugo, Magnus and Félix.



1.2.1 Roald Dahl born on the 13/09/1916 in LLandaff, Wales, GB, married to
Sofie Hesselberg

1.2.2 Else Dahl

1.2.3 Alfhild Dahl

1.2.4 Asta Dahl



1.3.1 Erik Dahl married to Denise Babinet. From there I have everything as
this branch became french. My Grand Mother moved to France to Oscar's place
when her parents died. She then met my grand father...

As you can see the commun ancester is the N°1 X Dahl. This X dahl was at the
same time a grand father for Roald Dahl and a grand father for Thérèse
Hansen my grand mother.

I hope this is understandable Smile))

Best Regards,

Harald.
Til Toppen
Skjult navn
Gjest





InnleggSkrevet: 26 Nov 2005 20:28:02    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Then, assuming we take the information presented here

http://www.bhac.org/home.html

to be correct, of which I quote a short section:

"Harald Dahl had lived in Norway. His father owned a small shop in a
town near Oslo. About 1880 Harald and his younger brother Oscar left
Norway to make their fortunes in the world. In Paris Harald met and
married a young French girl, Marie. He also met another Norwegian,
Ludvig Aadnesen. They agreed to become business partners. They set up
the firm of Aadnesen & Dahl, Shipbrokers. As shipbrokers they provided
the equipment for the ship and its crew and also supplied the coal for
the voyage."

I believe, it may make sense with the Dahl-family from Kristiania, as
that household includes a grandson Harald Dahl Aadnesen, born 1895 in
Durban (presumably South- Africa).

This boy is presumably the son of the married daughter in the
household, Clara Dahl Aadnesen. This relationship is, however, not
fully clear from the census record I referred to in my previous post.

JOA


On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:21:43 +0100, Jan-Ove Askautrud
<jaskautrud@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sitat:
And we find the same Dahl-family from Sarpsborg some years later in
Kristiania in the census of 1900 for Kristiania, here with a daughter
Olga.

http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1900&knr=0301&ken r=024&bnr=0007&lnr=03


[clip]
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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Nov 2005 21:00:10    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

And a minor detail;

http://library.thinkquest.org/J0113211/roald_dahl.htm

explains that Marie was the first wife of Harald Dahl.

JOA

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:28:02 +0100, Jan-Ove Askautrud
<jaskautrud@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sitat:
Then, assuming we take the information presented here

http://www.bhac.org/home.html

to be correct, of which I quote a short section:

"Harald Dahl had lived in Norway. His father owned a small shop in a
town near Oslo. About 1880 Harald and his younger brother Oscar left
Norway to make their fortunes in the world. In Paris Harald met and
married a young French girl, Marie. He also met another Norwegian,

[clip]
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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Nov 2005 21:11:49    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

And, in

<http://www.digitaltermpapers.com/a13133.htm>

it is stated that the children of Harald and Marie were a daughter
Ellen and a son Louis.

The daughter Ellen is presumably named after Haralds mother?

JOA


On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:00:10 +0100, Jan-Ove Askautrud
<jaskautrud@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sitat:
And a minor detail;

http://library.thinkquest.org/J0113211/roald_dahl.htm

explains that Marie was the first wife of Harald Dahl.

JOA

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:28:02 +0100, Jan-Ove Askautrud
jaskautrud@yahoo.com> wrote:

Then, assuming we take the information presented here

http://www.bhac.org/home.html

to be correct, of which I quote a short section:

"Harald Dahl had lived in Norway. His father owned a small shop in a
town near Oslo. About 1880 Harald and his younger brother Oscar left
Norway to make their fortunes in the world. In Paris Harald met and
married a young French girl, Marie. He also met another Norwegian,

[clip]
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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Nov 2005 23:12:46    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

I follow up myself again with a couple of dates:

Going back to Sarpsborg, a search in "Familysearch", results in the
following christenings reorded in the church books for the town of
Sarpsborg:

26 Jun 1864; Harald
29 Oct 1865; Clara
03 May 1868; Ragna
31 Aug 1873; Olga

of parents Olaus Trulsen Dahl and Elen Thorine Langengen (or
variations of these names).

The Census for 1900 for Kristiania indicates that the son Truls was
born in Sarpsborg in 1876. However, I have not found any online source
for the christening of Truls (or for Haralds younger brother Oscar).

JOA


On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:11:49 +0100, Jan-Ove Askautrud
<jaskautrud@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sitat:
And, in

http://www.digitaltermpapers.com/a13133.htm

it is stated that the children of Harald and Marie were a daughter
Ellen and a son Louis.

The daughter Ellen is presumably named after Haralds mother?

JOA

[clip)
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InnleggSkrevet: 27 Nov 2005 10:48:14    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

I'd say you have a reasonably good match there.

So to follow the Dahls back in time, it is time to head for
the church records of Eidsberg (aka Edsberg) parish in Østfold,
and look for the birth of Olav/Olaus/ Olavus Dahl in 1834.

Olav father's name is likely to be Truls, judged from the 1865
census (Olavus Trulss. Dahl)

http://tinyurl.com/arlxb

Smile,
Stein
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InnleggSkrevet: 27 Nov 2005 11:40:15    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

First, it might be useful to collect the following information from
"Familysearch" on a marriage in Sarpsborg:

20 Jun 1864, Sarpsborg:
Olaus Truelsen, age 30, father: Truls Pedersen, and
Elen Thorine Andersdr, age 29, father: Anders Eilertsen.

So, it may seem that Olaus was the first person to use the Dahl-name
in this family. And we are given the name of the father of
Olaus/Olavus. Then, to Eidsberg, "Familysearch" also provides
information on a baptism in Eidsberg:

19 May 1834, Eidsberg
Olavus Trulsen,
father: Truls Pedersen
mother: Kistine Olsdr

Further, a marriage between Truls Pedersen and Kistine Olsdr, on 3 Jun
1830 in Eidsberg has been recorded in the "Familysearch"-database.

Of, course, I advice a check in the microfilms/microfiche or other
similar copies of the original records as verification.

Regards,
Jan-Ove A.


On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 03:48:14 -0600, Stein R <steinjr@nospam.com>
wrote:

Sitat:
I'd say you have a reasonably good match there.

So to follow the Dahls back in time, it is time to head for
the church records of Eidsberg (aka Edsberg) parish in Østfold,
and look for the birth of Olav/Olaus/ Olavus Dahl in 1834.

Olav father's name is likely to be Truls, judged from the 1865
census (Olavus Trulss. Dahl)

http://tinyurl.com/arlxb

Smile,
Stein
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InnleggSkrevet: 27 Nov 2005 12:40:33    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Harald,

In other postings in this discussion I pointed you to the family of
Olaus Dahl and his wife Ellen Thorine Dahl in Kristiania (Oslo), and
further information on their family.

One way for you to go forward (slowly and carefully) could be to
search for records of the deaths of Olaus or Ellen (possibly in
Oslo?).

Such records might provide you with a more secure foundation for your
further search in Norway. The family of Olaus and Ellen seems to me as
a very likely candidate family, but I would still advise some further
searches on this family, unless you already feel very comfortable that
this is the correct family.

Olaus and Ellen Dahl were about 65 years old in 1900. Unless some
qualified guess can be made for their actual dates of death, the
period of 1900-1935 should perhaps be searched in the death records of
Oslo to try to find out if they are recorded as died in Oslo. Death
records may include names of all of the living children of this
couple, possibly also on the places where the children is living at
the time.

Information on such records can be found at the site of the
Riksarkivet/Statsarkvvet (National/Regional Archives in Oslo) here:

<http://www.riksarkivet.no/arkivverket/kilder/medier/mikrofilm/mikroko rt/dodsfallsprotokoller.html>

Alphbetical indices are available, however, not yet for use via
Internet.

Regards,
Jan-OVe A.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:05:52 +0100, "Harald de MAILLARD"
<harald.de.maillard@free.fr> wrote:

Sitat:

thank you to all of you for your help.

Dear Øystein,

Here is my details as requested. I have more if needed, I have put there
the minimum to explain my genealogy. I have used a genealogy classification
used in France, I do not know If you are use to this. The commun ancester to
everybody has the N°1 and then the chidren are following with the number of
their father or mother + 1,2,3... Number of their place in birth.

1 X Dahl married to X

1.1 Olga Dahl (norway) married to Peter Christian Cilius Hansen (Denmark)
(my great grand parents)

1.2 .Harald Dahl, born in 1863 in Sarpsborg, province de Østfold ( Norway)
and was married to Sofie Hesselberg

1.3 Oscar Dahl married to Thérèse Biot ( Oscar left Norway to France)

1.1.1 Thérèse Ragna Hansen born on the 20/04/1907 in Frederikshaval
(Denmark) married to Yves de Maillard (my grand parents)

1.1.1.1 Olga de Maillard

1.1.1.2 Christian de Maillard

1.1.1.3 Guy de Maillard married to Chantal Filhol ( my parents)

1.1.1.4 Erik de Maillard

1.1.1.3.1 Harald de Maillard (Me)

1.1.1.3.2 Axel de Maillard ( One of my brothers)

1.1.1.3.1.1 and 2 and 3 will be my sons, Hugo, Magnus and Félix.



1.2.1 Roald Dahl born on the 13/09/1916 in LLandaff, Wales, GB, married to
Sofie Hesselberg

1.2.2 Else Dahl

1.2.3 Alfhild Dahl

1.2.4 Asta Dahl



1.3.1 Erik Dahl married to Denise Babinet. From there I have everything as
this branch became french. My Grand Mother moved to France to Oscar's place
when her parents died. She then met my grand father...

As you can see the commun ancester is the N°1 X Dahl. This X dahl was at the
same time a grand father for Roald Dahl and a grand father for Thérèse
Hansen my grand mother.

I hope this is understandable Smile))

Best Regards,

Harald.
Til Toppen
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InnleggSkrevet: 29 Nov 2005 14:47:12    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Jan-Ove Askautrud wrote:

Sitat:
So, it may seem that Olaus was the first person to use the Dahl-name
in this family. And we are given the name of the father of
Olaus/Olavus. Then, to Eidsberg, "Familysearch" also provides
information on a baptism in Eidsberg:

19 May 1834, Eidsberg
Olavus Trulsen,
father: Truls Pedersen
mother: Kistine Olsdr

Further, a marriage between Truls Pedersen and Kistine Olsdr, on 3 Jun
1830 in Eidsberg has been recorded in the "Familysearch"-database.

I had a look into Roald Dahl's ancestry a year
ago, and I ended up in Eidsberg too (I have a lot
of ancestors from Eidsberg so it's kind of "my area").

The 1865 census for Eidsberg:
http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1865&knr=0125&ken r=010&bnr=0017&lnr=000
shows the people on *Smaadal* farm in Trømborg parish:
Kirstine Olsdatter e Byxelkone 1810 Eidsberg Prgj.
Fredrik Jensen g bruger Jordveien for sin
Svigermoder 1828 Eidsberg Prgj.
Petrine Trulsdatter hans Kone g 1829 Eidsberg Prgj.
Johan T. Fredriksen deres Søn ug 1860 Eidsberg
Prgj.
Anette Fredriksdatter deres Datter ug 1862
Eidsberg Prgj.

Kirstine is a widow, Petrine is her daughter,
Fredrik is Petrine's husband, and Johan and Anette
are Johan and Petrine's children.

From FS/IGI
PETRINE TRULSDR
Christening: 03 OCT 1830 Eidsberg, Ostfold,
Norway
Father: TRULS PEDERSEN
Mother: KRISTINE OLSDR

Smaadal means "little valley". I can't guarantee
that this is the origin of this Dahl-family's
name, but it looks very likely to me.


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InnleggSkrevet: 29 Nov 2005 14:54:24    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Inger Helene Falch-Jacobsen wrote:

Sitat:
Kirstine is a widow, Petrine is her daughter, Fredrik is Petrine's
husband, and Johan and Anette are....

Oops! Johan and Anette are *Fredrik*'s and
Petrine's children, of course.


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InnleggSkrevet: 29 Nov 2005 18:01:17    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:47:12 +0100, Inger Helene Falch-Jacobsen
<Inger@neseblod.invalid>; <yZYif.1574$zc1.1066@amstwist00>;
<soc.genealogy.nordic>:

Sitat:
Smaadal means "little valley". I can't guarantee
that this is the origin of this Dahl-family's
name, but it looks very likely to me.

As a former inhabitant of Eidsberg, I'd be careful to accept that
conclusion (I wouldn't forget the possibility, of course); Eidsberg is
full of valleys and hills. The buildings of Smådal are, as far as I can
recall, situated on a ridge between two narrow "valleys" dug by
occasional creeks, close to the township of Mysen. There are more
significant valleys in Eidsberg than those around Smådal.
--
/Jan
<janpharo@supernett.no>
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InnleggSkrevet: 30 Nov 2005 22:29:33    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:47:12 +0100, Inger Helene Falch-Jacobsen

<Inger@neseblod.invalid> wrote:

[snip]
Sitat:

I had a look into Roald Dahl's ancestry a year
ago, and I ended up in Eidsberg too (I have a lot
of ancestors from Eidsberg so it's kind of "my area").

[snip]


Hello Inger,

Thanks for your information. I have ancestors in Eidsberg, too!

Your suggestion that the farm name Smaadahl could be the origin of the
Dahl name is interesting. It is the best suggestion I have seen so
far.

Actually proving such an origin could be difficult, so we may have to
settle for this as a good suggestion. However, this is a lot better
than having noe idea at all.

You mention that you looked into Roald Dahls ancestry some time ago.

Did you identify his grandparents on his mother side?

Jan-Ove A.
www.askautrud.net
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InnleggSkrevet: 01 Des 2005 07:01:54    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Jan-Ove Askautrud wrote:
Sitat:
Inger Helene Falch-Jacobsen wrote:

I had a look into Roald Dahl's ancestry a year
ago, and I ended up in Eidsberg too (I have a lot
of ancestors from Eidsberg so it's kind of "my area").


[snip]

Hello Inger,

Thanks for your information. I have ancestors in Eidsberg, too!

Your suggestion that the farm name Smaadahl could be the origin of the
Dahl name is interesting. It is the best suggestion I have seen so
far.

Actually proving such an origin could be difficult, so we may have to
settle for this as a good suggestion. However, this is a lot better
than having noe idea at all.

You mention that you looked into Roald Dahls ancestry some time ago.

Did you identify his grandparents on his mother side?

Jan-Ove A.
www.askautrud.net

I agree, it would be difficult to determine if
Smaadal is the origin of this Dahl name, but it
can be worth having in mind. I don't know if it
ever can be proved!

I only looked at the Østfold branch, although I
associate Hesselberg with Larvik in Vestfold,
where another major branch of my ancestors came
from. I would guess she is the organist and
daughter in this family:
http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1900&knr=0725&ken r=001&bnr=0055&lnr=00
Roald has a daughter Else, maybe she is named
after Magdalene's sister?
But the Eidsberg track seemed more interesting to me!

Your Ahnentafel revealed quite a few interesting
names, although I couldn't find a direct link
between us... You have a great-grandmother born in
Hølen. Guess where I grew up!


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InnleggSkrevet: 01 Des 2005 22:15:35    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 07:01:54 +0100, Inger Helene Falch-Jacobsen
<Inger@neseblod.invalid> wrote:


Sitat:
I agree, it would be difficult to determine if
Smaadal is the origin of this Dahl name, but it
can be worth having in mind. I don't know if it
ever can be proved!

I only looked at the Østfold branch, although I
associate Hesselberg with Larvik in Vestfold,
where another major branch of my ancestors came
from. I would guess she is the organist and
daughter in this family:
http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1900&knr=0725&ken r=001&bnr=0055&lnr=00
Roald has a daughter Else, maybe she is named
after Magdalene's sister?
But the Eidsberg track seemed more interesting to me!

Your Ahnentafel revealed quite a few interesting
names, although I couldn't find a direct link
between us... You have a great-grandmother born in
Hølen. Guess where I grew up!


Hi again Inger,

Nice to see our common connection to Eidsberg and Hølen! Perhaps we
that is, our ancestors Smile, will meet some time in the future.

About your suggestion of family of Roald Dahls mother I don't think
this is the right family.

A search in "Familysearch" reveals a girl, who I believe is the same
person as you take a guess at, as recorded to be born on Dec 18,
1869, baptised in Larvik, Vestfold, on January 23, 1870:
Marie Magdalehne Iversen, Parents: Iver Hesselberg and Petrea
Leegaard.

Now, there is problem with her as the mother of Roald; she is called
Marie Magdalehne.

I believe other sources quotes Roalds mothers name as "Sophie
Magdalene". I think perhaps the family that I suggested previously in
this thread is a more likely candidate:

http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1900&knr=0301&ken r=275&bnr=0019&lnr=01

Perhaps a search at some later time will be able to tell us if this is
the right family.

Jan-Ove A.
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InnleggSkrevet: 02 Des 2005 01:32:42    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Jan-Ove Askautrud wrote:

Sitat:
About your suggestion of family of Roald Dahls mother I don't think
this is the right family.

A search in "Familysearch" reveals a girl, who I believe is the same
person as you take a guess at, as recorded to be born on Dec 18,
1869, baptised in Larvik, Vestfold, on January 23, 1870:
Marie Magdalehne Iversen, Parents: Iver Hesselberg and Petrea
Leegaard.

Now, there is problem with her as the mother of Roald; she is called
Marie Magdalehne.

I believe other sources quotes Roalds mothers name as "Sophie
Magdalene". I think perhaps the family that I suggested previously in
this thread is a more likely candidate:

http://www.rhd.uit.no/folketellinger/ftliste.aspx?ft=1900&knr=0301&ken r=275&bnr=0019&lnr=01

I totally overlooked Sofie Magdalene Hesselberg
born 1885! And she has a sister Astrid, same name
as one of Roald's sisters...
But what do we think about this, from the link you
provided, Jan-Ove:
http://www.digitaltermpapers.com/a13133.htm
"Harald var nästan 15 år äldre än Sofie" (Harald
was almost 15 years older than Sofie). If Harald
was born in 1864, Sofie should have been born
around or a little bit before 1879. There are no
suitable candidates with that age? Why all those
myths? But at least I now understand why Harald's
"just over one year younger" brother doesn't show
up in the 1865 census: Harald was born in 1864,
not 1863, and Oscar wasn't born yet!

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InnleggSkrevet: 02 Des 2005 20:09:29    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 01:32:42 +0100, Inger Helene Falch-Jacobsen
<Inger@neseblod.invalid> wrote:

Sitat:
But what do we think about this, from the link you
provided, Jan-Ove:
http://www.digitaltermpapers.com/a13133.htm
"Harald var nästan 15 år äldre än Sofie" (Harald
was almost 15 years older than Sofie). If Harald
was born in 1864, Sofie should have been born
around or a little bit before 1879. There are no
suitable candidates with that age? Why all those
myths? But at least I now understand why Harald's
"just over one year younger" brother doesn't show
up in the 1865 census: Harald was born in 1864,
not 1863, and Oscar wasn't born yet!

Hello again, Inger

Even though it was stated that Harald was almost 15 years older than
his wife Sofie, I believe the age difference could well have been
larger.

We have to remember that there has been somewhat of a prejudice to
large age differences, so I guess 15 years difference was the maximum
the person who provided this information would admit to. Remember also
that we have not yet seen a birth year for Roald Dahls mother
presented here (yet).

I don't think there are any myths around. Please consider the fact
that Roald Dahl lived not so many years ago, and that relevant archive
sources that might provide information for example on his parents
deaths may not have been accessible due to privacy regulations.

I was at the archives this afternoon. I looked at Sarpsborg church
records and found a couple of interesting records. This is what I
found (translated):

1864, Baptisms, #58,
Harald, born 4. Dcbr 1832, baptised 26. June 1864,
Parents: Butcher Olaus Trulsen Dahl and Wife Elen Thorine Langengen,
Adress: Dronningens Gade.
(Source: Sarpsborg Churchbook, MINI 1, 1859-1869)

1871, Baptisms, #33
Oscar, born 10. Decbr, Baptised 9. April
Parents: Butcher Olaus Trulsen Dahl, 37, and Elen Torine Langengen,
37, married 7 years.
(Source: Sarpsborg Churchbook, MINI 2, 1869-1877)

1876, Baptisms, #56
Truls, Born 3. January, Baptised 7. May
Parents: Butcher Olaus Trulsen Dahl, 42 yrs, and Wife Elen Torine
Langenga, 42 yrs, married 11 years.
(Source: Sarpsborg Churchbook, MINI 2, 1869-1877)

So her we have Oscar and Truls. However, Oscar seems to be 5 years
younger than Harald. And Harald was in fact born in 1863, but baptised
in 1864.

I also looked for sofie Hesselberg, but have not found any good record
so far that tells me more about Haralds wife Sofie, or correctly
identifies her parents.

Jan-Ove A.
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InnleggSkrevet: 02 Des 2005 21:35:07    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 20:09:29 +0100, Jan-Ove Askautrud
<jaskautrud@yahoo.com> wrote:


Sitat:

I also looked for sofie Hesselberg, but have not found any good record
so far that tells me more about Haralds wife Sofie, or correctly
identifies her parents.

Jan-Ove A.


And a quick follow-up: Sofie Magadalene Dahl (1885-1967)

http://www.roalddahlmuseum.org/uploads/Summary%20of%20Roald%20Dahl%20a rchive3.pdf

And, more precisely on her date of death:

http://www.roalddahlfans.com/timelines.php

"1967 ....Dahl's mother Sofie dies on November 17."

Now, we're getting closer..

Jan-Ove A.
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InnleggSkrevet: 02 Des 2005 22:05:52    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 20:09:29 +0100, Jan-Ove Askautrud
Sitat:
1864, Baptisms, #58,
Harald, born 4. Dcbr 1832, baptised 26. June 1864,

Apologize for a typo. The above should read:

Harald, born 4. Dcbr 1863, baptised 26. June 1864,
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InnleggSkrevet: 03 Des 2005 13:31:51    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Jan-Ove Askautrud wrote:

Sitat:
And a quick follow-up: Sofie Magadalene Dahl (1885-1967)

http://www.roalddahlmuseum.org/uploads/Summary%20of%20Roald%20Dahl%20a rchive3.pdf

And, more precisely on her date of death:

http://www.roalddahlfans.com/timelines.php

"1967 ....Dahl's mother Sofie dies on November 17."

Now, we're getting closer..

Jan-Ove A.

:-)

Now we are getting somewhere! Well done, Jan-Ove!


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InnleggSkrevet: 05 Des 2005 20:20:38    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Harald Maillard, Inger and others;

Olaus Trulsen Dahl died in Kristiania on February 3, 1923 (the city
changed name back to Oslo the year after, in 1924).

A death notice was published in the newspaper Aftenposten, on
Wednesday, Febuary 5, 1923. It states (my translation):

"Olaves T. Dahl died this morning, nearly 89 years old, 3-2-1923
Clara Cammermeyer
Ragna Smedsrud
Oscar Dahl (La Rochelle)
Olga Aansen (Fredrikshavn)
Truls Dahl
Sons/Daughters-in-law, Grandchildren."

So, here are the five living children of Olaves(Olaus/Olavus) Trulsen
Dahl listed, the daugters with their married names.

The register of deaths for Kristiania tells us that he was a widower
(Which also can deduced from the above death notice) and that he lived
at the following address "Thereses gt. 14b" (Which happens to be the
road I travelled through upon leaving work this afternoon just before
4 o'clock. Nice coincidence Smile )

the death record says he had five children, all adults, and a deceased
son with 6 children; 1 adult and the others minors), His wife Ellen
Dahl died about 12 years ago.

I guess the deceased son would be Harald, the father of Roald Dahl.

Any comments, Harald?

Best regards,
Jan-Ove Askautrud


On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:40:33 +0100, Jan-Ove Askautrud
<jaskautrud@yahoo.com> wrote:

Sitat:
Harald,

In other postings in this discussion I pointed you to the family of
Olaus Dahl and his wife Ellen Thorine Dahl in Kristiania (Oslo), and
further information on their family.

One way for you to go forward (slowly and carefully) could be to
search for records of the deaths of Olaus or Ellen (possibly in
Oslo?).


[clip]

Sitat:
Regards,
Jan-OVe A.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 20:05:52 +0100, "Harald de MAILLARD"
harald.de.maillard@free.fr> wrote:


thank you to all of you for your help.

Dear Øystein,

Here is my details as requested. I have more if needed, I have put there
the minimum to explain my genealogy. I have used a genealogy classification
used in France, I do not know If you are use to this. The commun ancester to
everybody has the N°1 and then the chidren are following with the number of
their father or mother + 1,2,3... Number of their place in birth.

1 X Dahl married to X

1.1 Olga Dahl (norway) married to Peter Christian Cilius Hansen (Denmark)
(my great grand parents)

1.2 .Harald Dahl, born in 1863 in Sarpsborg, province de Østfold ( Norway)
and was married to Sofie Hesselberg

1.3 Oscar Dahl married to Thérèse Biot ( Oscar left Norway to France)

1.1.1 Thérèse Ragna Hansen born on the 20/04/1907 in Frederikshaval
(Denmark) married to Yves de Maillard (my grand parents)

1.1.1.1 Olga de Maillard

1.1.1.2 Christian de Maillard

1.1.1.3 Guy de Maillard married to Chantal Filhol ( my parents)

1.1.1.4 Erik de Maillard

1.1.1.3.1 Harald de Maillard (Me)

1.1.1.3.2 Axel de Maillard ( One of my brothers)

1.1.1.3.1.1 and 2 and 3 will be my sons, Hugo, Magnus and Félix.



1.2.1 Roald Dahl born on the 13/09/1916 in LLandaff, Wales, GB, married to
Sofie Hesselberg

1.2.2 Else Dahl

1.2.3 Alfhild Dahl

1.2.4 Asta Dahl



1.3.1 Erik Dahl married to Denise Babinet. From there I have everything as
this branch became french. My Grand Mother moved to France to Oscar's place
when her parents died. She then met my grand father...

As you can see the commun ancester is the N°1 X Dahl. This X dahl was at the
same time a grand father for Roald Dahl and a grand father for Thérèse
Hansen my grand mother.

I hope this is understandable Smile))

Best Regards,

Harald.
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InnleggSkrevet: 05 Des 2005 20:47:38    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 13:31:51 +0100, Inger Helene Falch-Jacobsen
<Inger@neseblod.invalid> wrote:

Sitat:
Jan-Ove Askautrud wrote:

And a quick follow-up: Sofie Magadalene Dahl (1885-1967)

http://www.roalddahlmuseum.org/uploads/Summary%20of%20Roald%20Dahl%20a rchive3.pdf

And, more precisely on her date of death:

http://www.roalddahlfans.com/timelines.php

"1967 ....Dahl's mother Sofie dies on November 17."

Now, we're getting closer..

Jan-Ove A.

:-)

Now we are getting somewhere! Well done, Jan-Ove!

Thanks for the encouragement, Inger.

I think I now will be able to conclude on who Sofie's parents were.
She has to be the daughter of Karl Laurits Hesselberg, whose family
was identified previously in this thread, see also further comments
below.

According to the death records of Oslo Karl Laurits Hesselberg died on
September 10, 1935, 81 9/12 years old. He left his wife Ellen
Hesselberg, living at the street adress "Josefines gt. 33", and three
adult children, two here (in Oslo) and one in England. The death was
reported by Astrid Hesselberg and Ellen Hesselberg, both on the above
street adress.

Both of the daughters Astrid and Ellen were unmarried and lived on
this adress at least until 1940.

His wife Ellen Hesselberg, nee Wallace, died on January 29, 1945. The
newspaper Aftenposten carried a death notice on Thursday, February 1,
1945. It says (my translation):

"Mrs Ellen Hesselberg, nee Wallace
left us quietly yesterday,
Oslo, January 29, 1945
Sofie Dahl, Astrid and Ellen Hesselberg
Grandchildren.
Funeral Service at the Old Crematory,
Friday, February 2, at 14:00"

From the above we may conclude that it is the daughter Sofie
(Magdalene) Dahl that is living in England in 1935.

Although I have no direct evidence, the information overwhelmingly
persuades me that this Sofie Dahl must be the mother of Roald Dahl.

First of all, her name (Sofie Magdalena Dahl nee Hesselberg) is quite
unique. We have been told (see above link) that Roald Dahls mother was
born in 1885. This is the same year that Karl Laurits Hesselbergs
daughter was born. Now, we are also able to confirm that Karl Laurits
Hesselberg indeed had a daughter, married Dahl, who lived in England
in 1935.

Now, I guess anyone interested might find it easier to continue
working on the ancestors of Roald Dahl on his mothers side from here.


Regards,
Jan-Ove Askautrud.
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Des 2005 21:49:44    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

A few days ago, Harald de Maillard provided us with the following
input:

Sitat:

1 X Dahl married to X

1.1 Olga Dahl (norway) married to Peter Christian Cilius Hansen (Denmark)
(my great grand parents)

1.2 .Harald Dahl, born in 1863 in Sarpsborg, province de Østfold ( Norway)
and was married to Sofie Hesselberg

1.3 Oscar Dahl married to Thérèse Biot ( Oscar left Norway to France)

[clip]


Now, I believe I can contribute sufficient information for our French
friend Harald to replace the "X Dahl" in the above with "Olaves
Trulsen Dahl".

A Probate Court record (recording and division of estate) was made in
Christiania following the death of Olaves Trulsen Dahl in 1923. The
record was made on February 22, 1923 and I quote most of it below:

[quote begin]:

The year 1923 on 23. February a recording transaction (or operation)
was performed at the Office of the Probate Court in the estate after
sausage maker (or pork butcher) Olaves Trulsen Dahl who died on
February 3, 1923 and on 15. September 1911 deceased wife Ellen Thorine
Dahl, Theresegt. 14B.

The transaction was conducted on behalf of the Probate Court Officer
by Eilif Birketveit in attestation of the undersigned witnesses.

Present at the transaction were:
Mrs. Clara Cammermeyer,
Widow Ragna smedsrud, and
Mr. Truls Dahl

It was informed that the heirs to the estate were:

1. Daughter, Mrs. Clara Cammermeyer, married to Machinist Siegfrid
Cammermeyer, Address: Bygdö Allé 18,

2. Daughter, Widow Ragna Smedsrud, Theresegaten 14B,

3. Daughter, Mrs. Olga Dahl Hansen, married to telegraph manager
Christian Hansen, Address: Fredrikshavn, Denmark,

4. Son, Sausage maker (pork butcher), Truls Dahl, Address: Lysaker,

5. Son, Shipbroker Oscar Dahl, Address: La-Rochelle, France,

6. Deceased Son, Shipbroker, Harald Dahl, in his first marriage
leaving two children:

a. Ellen Dahl, 19 years,

b. Louis Dahl, 16 years,

both at address: Cumberlain Lodge, Llandaff, Glamorgan, England,

and in his second marriage with surviving wife Sofie Dahl, leaving
four children:

a. Alfhild Dahl, about 10 years,

b. Roald Dahl, about 8 years,

c. Else Dahl, about 4 years,

d. Baby Dahl, about 2 years.

[end quote].

There are a couple of more details related to the settling of the
estate, but these do not seem to contain any genealogical information.
For simplicity, I left these details out here.

And, for your reference, the source information is:
Christiania, Probate Court, Record Protocol no. 15, Series D,
8/7-1922 - 4/12-1923, page 113.

Enjoy!

Regards,
Jan-Ove Askautrud
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Mai 2009 21:20:47    Tittel: Re: Dahl coats of arms & Smor in Norway Svar med Sitat

Even long time since this was active, I hope someone will see this:

I have some notes from kirkebøker Gamle Aker, Oslo about the marriage in Norway of
Roald Dahls father, Harald Dahl with his second wife, Sofie, Roalds Dahls mother:
'''''''''''''''
Gamle Aker kirkebok Lysninger 1909-1918
Lysning 2/4 Vielse 8/4 kl. 5 1911 folio 18
Nr. 23
Enkemand Skibsmegler Harald Dahl Cardif
Sofie Magdalene Hesselberg (hjemme) Anton Schøllsg.25
S. af slagermester Olaus Dahl f. i Sarpsborg 4/12 1863, døbt 24/4? ft Aar Skifteretten av 1/2? 1911
.... Kristine Marie Baurin ? død 16/11 1907
D. af Casserer Cand.jur. Karl Lauritz Hesselberg f. i Kr.a 11/4 1885, døbt 7/6 s. A.

Forlovererklæring Gamle Aker 1905-1914 upaginert
Vi undertegnede bekjendte med lovens fordringer i sagen inbdestaa herved som Forlovere for, at der ikker er
nogen lovlig hindring for at Ægteskap stiftes mellem
Enkemand Skibs
megler Harald Dahl og
Sofie Magdalene Hesselberg
Kristiania 17de Marts 1911

Undertegnet
Ivar H. Breder
Cand. jur.
Briskebyveien 3 III

Henry Tschudi
Konsul
Harkets gade 20
(egenhendig skriftlig erklæring)

As i read it, the name of Haralds first (french?) wife is given.

......(hustru? Kristine Marie ? Baurin ? død (dead)16/11 1907) .......spelling uncertain

If someone have more information it would be interesting.

Regards
Arve Arntzen

http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?show=19&uid=112126&urnread_image size=full&hode=nei&ls=1


http://www.arkivverket.no/URN:kb_read?show=133&uid=112726&urnread_imag esize=gigant&hode=nei&ls=1
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