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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Okt 2005 03:31:01    Tittel: Fall of the House of Roeulx?? (LONG!) Svar med Sitat

Hi all,

Especially Leo, who has generously corresponded off-list/group with the
ES enumeration of the genealogy of de Roeulx.

I now realize that I have seen much of that before, usually on internet
genealogy sites and then usually citing the LDS resources.

Mr. Lindsay Brook of the FMG pointed me towards two additional
resources, namely, Plumet (also referred by another group member) and
LeJeune ("Recherches Historiques Sur le Roeulx," Annales du Cercle
Archeologique de Mons, 32 (1890) pp. 115-339), which was quite
fortunate for me inasmuch as Annales du Cercle Archeologique de Mons is
apparently unavailable in the US!! (he kindly photocopied much of the
below and mailed it to me).

LeJeune cites a good many sources (which I also cannot obtain!!). The
following is from LeJeune and my albeit likely poor understanding of it
inasmuch as it is in French, I do not competently read French, and
Babelfish apparently also does not competently read French @;-)

I am trying to understand not only the genealogy of du Roeulx but also
what seemingly was the cause of such a rapid and impoverishing
implosion of the family's fortunes:

I begin with LeJeune's 13th C. Roeulx:

per LE JEUNE:

Eustache IV du Roeulx, dit l'Ampoulé, 1210-1221 m. Marie, d. & h.
Gilles, Lord of Trith

1. Eustache V du Roeulx
2. Gilles du Roeulx m. Alice de Ligne, Lady of Montreuil
3. Thierry du Roeulx m. Helvide, Lady of Wannes
4. Gui du Roeulx, chanoine de Saint-Géri, a Cambrai
5. Simon du Roeulx, chanoine a Arras
6. Arnould du Roeulx, Governor of Arleux
7. Gerard du Roueulx, chanoine de Saint-Aubert, a Cambrai
8. Marie du Roeulx, m. Hugh, Chatelain of Gand
9. Isabeau du Roeulx m. Gauduin, Lord of Peruwelz.

EUSTACHE V du Roeulx, 1221-1283 m. 1. Philippine d'Antoing, Canivet,
2. Agnes, d. & h. Gilles, Lord of Trazegnies
& Silly (1356)

by Agnes, he had:

1. Gilles du Roeulx, dit Rigaux
2. Otton du Roeulx, taking the name & arms of Trazegnies
m. Catherine de Hillebecque, Lady of Grandpre
m. Isabeau de Chatillon, d. Gautier, Counte of Porcean.
3. Thierri du Roeulx, Lord of Hussignies, knight
4. Jean du Roeulx, "prevot" of Saint-Gery at Cambrai (1285)
5. Arnould du Roeulx, Gov. of Guise.
6. Alix du Roeulx, nun at Premi
7. Agnes du Roeulx
8. Marie du Roeulx.

GILLES DU ROEULX, dit Rigaut, 1284-1308.
m. Isabeau, Lady of Montreuil

1. Eustache VI Du Roeulx
2. Gilles du Roeulx
3. Guillaume du Roeulx
4. Thierry du Roeulx, canon of St. Gery at Cambrai
5. Fastre du Roeulx
6. Marie du Roeulx
7. Jean du Roeulx (d. 1313).

EUSTACHE VI DU ROEULX 1308-1336

No offspring???

According to a perhaps very bad Babelfish translation, it would appear
at this time that the vast land holdings of Roeulx were divided.
LeJeune explicitly states that Eustache kept Roeulx, Morlanwelz,
"etc.", while Fastre obtained Montreuil, Trith, and Maing. Trazegnies
had already been given to their uncle Otton.

In 1312, Isabeau, Eustache and Fastre jointly conveyed Morlanwelz to
the Count of Hainault and appear to have held it for life only in
return for ???

LeJeune then notes that, like some of his celebrated ancestors,
Eustache VI enters into a life of combat, along with brother Fastre.
For instance, LeJeune reports that Eustache IV, along with Count
Fernand of Portugal, was imprisoned while fighting the/in Bouvines for
the Count of Hainault in 1314.

Other family lands at some point included the barony of Trazegnies,
the peerage of Silly and the lands of Hussignies,
Chapelle-lez-Herlaimont, Braine-le-Chateau, "etc."

In 1322, LeJeune reports:

"Vers le meme temps, le comte de Hainaut leur retroceda les revenus des
terres dont ils s'etaiet desherites en sa faveur. On passa plusieurs
actes a cet effet, en presence des pairs du Hainaut et de divers hommes
de fief de ce comte. C'est ainsi que par des lettres datees de
Valenciennes, les revenus de la terre et seigneurie du Roeulx, de
Morlanwelz, de Montreuil, de Trith et de Maing leur furent attribues et
ils en jouirent leur vie durant."

Here, the Roeulx' 'disinherit' themselves to the count of the revenues
of the lands of the Lordship of Roeulx, Morlanwela, Montreuil, Trith
and Maing.

Again, if I and babelfish do not misread, the following is stated:

"Le 21 octobre suivant, Eustache VI du Roeulx scella, avec les
principaux seigneurs et les bonnes villes du Brabant, le traite de
mariage entre Guillaume, fils aine du comte de Hainaut, et Jeanne,
fille atnee du duc de Brabant. Le sire du Roeulx s'etait reserve, dans
l'un des actes passes a Valenciennes, la possession de la maison, de la
ville et terre de Trivieres, qu'il tenait en fief du comte de Hainaut
Il ne profita pas toujours du revenu integral de ce domaine, car a
partir de 1324, il se vit oblige de vinir en aide a son frere et de lui
allouer sur ce revenu une rente de 200 livrees de terre jusqu'a ce que
Fastre eut acquitte les sommes qu'il devait a son prince."

Sitat:
From which I read that Eustache conveyed his lands to William, Conte of
Hainault, for the marriage of William to Jeanne of Brabant, keeping

only the house, village and lands of Trivieres, held of the Count, but
from which he apparently profited little, obliging him to seek[?]
assistance from his brother Fastre until the debt owed the Count was
discharged?

More:

"De son cote, Eustache, pour subvenir au paiement de ses dettes qui ne
s'elevaient pas a moins de 3000 livres, se desherita, par acte passe a
Mons, au mois de novembre 1325, d'une rente de 300 livrees de terre au
profit de Guillaume I d'Avesnes qui s'etait rendu caution pour son
chevalier jusqu'a concurrence de cette somme envers Bernard Royer et
ses associes, lombards au Quesnoi."

So, do I read correctly that Eustache also disinherited himself (as
opposed to just Fastre) to discharge a debt? And to the Count of
d'Avesnes and not Hainault? Was there some sort of political quarrel
there? This is starting to look like a major crash in the family's
fortunes!

Two years later, Eustache sells off more property to Fastre:

"Deux ans plus tard, il vendit a son frere Fastre les viviers de Wanse,
de Sierrin, de Renardiel et le grand vivier du Roeulx, qu'il tenait en
fief, a cause de sa pairie."

Does "viviers" mean livelihood or fishponds?

in 1332 he (Eustache) seems to get an annuity of 60 pounds from the
Count of Artois ("Deux ans plus tard, il vendit a son frere Fastre les
viviers de Wanse, de Sierrin, de Renardiel et le grand vivier du
Roeulx, qu'il tenait en fief, a cause de sa pairie.").

He apparently died 1336/7. Landless? Fastre apparently died ca. 1331.

Any thoughts?

I'm exhausted now!

Judy
www.katherineswynford.net
katherineswynford.blogspot.com/
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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Okt 2005 08:16:30    Tittel: Re: Fall of the House of Roeulx?? (LONG!) Svar med Sitat

Dear Judy ~

Thank you for your great post. Interesting as always. I hope I may be
permitted to make an observation which I believe is pertinent to the
discussion.

As I understand it, you're currently researching the history of the
early lords of Roeulx in order to locate the ancestry of Katherine de
Roet (Ruet, or Roelt), wife of John of Gaunt, Duke of Aquitaine and
Lancaster.

According to Brian Timms' great website on heraldry
(http://www.briantimms.com/wijnbergen/wnhainault.htm), the arms of
Eustache V de Roeulx, a member of the early family, are listed as
follows:

"1206 Reux: d'or à 3 lions de gueules [Or three lions rampant gules]

Similarly, the arms of Thierry de Roeulx are as follows:

"1207 Reux: d'or à 3 lions de gueules au lambel (3) d'azur [Or three
lions rampant gules a label of three points azure].

These same arms, three lions, are likewise assigned to the several
members of the early Roeulx family by Germain Demay in his work,
Inventaire des Sceaux de la Flandre, 1 (1873): 183. I might note that
none of the members of the early Roeulx family bore a wheel or
Catherine wheel in their arms, rather just a simple shield of three
lions or three lions crowned.

On the other hand, I believe it's rather certain that the arms of John
of Gaunt's wife, Katherine de Roet (Ruet, Roelt), were Gules three
Catherine wheels gules, which arms are depicted on the tomb of
Katherine's nephew, Thomas Chaucer, Esq., as well as her great-niece,
Alice (Chaucer) de la Pole, Duchess of Suffolk. If so, these arms do
not match the arms of the early Roeulx family you are discussing.
Rather, they appear to match the arms of Nicolas Resteau who was
seigneur of Roeulx in Hainault in a later period, after the earlier
Roeulx family lost their possessions. The arms of Nicolas Resteau are
given by Germain Demay in Inventaire des Sceaux de la Flandre 1 (1873):
182-183 as "trois roues" [that is, three wheels]. This information can
be viewed online at the gallica website at the following address:

http://visualiseur.bnf.fr/CadresFenetre?O=NUMM-95357&M=pagination&Y=Im age

If the arms of Katherine de Roet match those of the Resteau family, it
seems that it would be better to concentrate on that family, rather
than the earlier seigneurs of Roeulx whose arms don't match. Three
Katherine wheels are obviously not the same as three lions (crowned).

As such, what can you tell us of the history of the Resteau family?
When exactly did they become seigneurs of Roeulx? Lastly, are there
any other Hainault families that bore three wheels for their arms
besides the Resteau family?

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Website: www.royalancestry.net
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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Okt 2005 16:25:44    Tittel: Re: Fall of the House of Roeulx?? (LONG!) Svar med Sitat

Dear Douglas,

Thank you for your comments! Yes, I was aware that the Lords of Roeulx
did not bear wheels but instead the lions reminiscent of the counts of
Hainault from which they are said to have descended. Indeed, I made
the point in my FMG article, citing the rolls of Wijnbergen (sp?) and
du Gelre, among others IIRC. Rietstrap, unfortunately, gives wheels
for Roet/Roeulx or some such spelling.

As for why I am concentrating on Roeulx instead of Resteau (which I
think is dit Resteau?) is to examine Lindsay Brook's theory (per his
article in FMG Foundations) that Payne Roet = Gilles du Roeulx.

Over the years, I've bounced back and forth on the issue, landing
mostly on the side that the Payne Roet family was not related to du
Roeulx. But I recently went back and re-read (to the extent that I
can!) some of the information in the Cartulaire of the Counts of
Hainault (sorry, can't remember where the du's and de's go exactly). I
was wondering if the Isabel/Elizabeth named a chanoinness of St. Wadru,
Mons, was perhaps an aunt rather than a daughter of Payne (she would
have had to have been born not later than the mid-1330s whereas
Katherine and Philippa were of course presumably born much later). Or,
perhaps, this was yet another conjectural connection and Payne wasn't
mentioned at all.

Here's what the Cartulaire says about Elizabeth:

"nobili adolescentule Elizabet dicte dou Ruet domini Egidii dicti
Paonet de Ruet filie" (this is from the letters in which the Empress
Margaret grants Elizabeth the prebende of the chapter of St. Waudru,
Mons, in 1349 (Cartulaire... Vol. I, p. 321).

So, this Elizabeth is expressely called Paon's daughter. But the
"Egidii dicti Paonet de Ruet" had me going for a while... until I found
out that the English or common name of Egidii is "Giles" (several
religious websites). So what we have is Giles _called_ Paonet de Ruet.

When Elizabeth dies there in 1369, Albert, Duke of Gavaria, gives
Elizabeth's spot to a "Jeanne d'Ecaussines". (Vol. II, p. 157). This
is interesting because, in general, near as I can tell, chanoinneses of
St. Waudru, Mons, were largely noble ladies -- others were from the
families of Gavre, Robessart, Ecaussines, Lalaing, Sars, etc. Ladies
seemed to enter there either to pursue a comfortable life of religion
(they were not required to give up their possessions) or as a sort of
finishing school (some left to marry). There also seems to be a weak
correspondence with families whose members served as high bailiffs of
Hainault (Rings archaeological of Mons, T.20 -- note that I've not
actually seen this article, only its reference, as this periodical
seems unavailable in the US per my university's interlibrary loan
efforts).

The second interesting thing about the Ecaussines nomination is that
Roeulx and Ecaussines intermarried at some point, and that a Jeanne,
"Lady of Ecaussines", daughter of a Gilles du Roeulx (ibid), married
Simon LaLaing (d. 1386), a two-time high bailiff of Hainault. In 1414,
the position of chanoinness of St. Waudru is granted to a Jacqueline,
daughter of the Lord of Lalaing.

Not anything really conclusive, but intriguing, and, to me at least,
leaning/pointing in the direction of a du Roeulx connection.

Thoughts?

Judy
www.katherineswynford.net
katherineswynford.blogspot.com
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