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InnleggSkrevet: 07 Feb 2008 00:34:07    Tittel: Re: Lady Diana's Ancestry Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 2/6/2008 11:07:01 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

In a message dated 2/6/2008 4:30:28 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
AaronParmenter@gmail.com writes:

be delighted when you change it, Leo, in the meantime be wrong>>
-----------------------
This would make a very nice line to a pop song.
It has a certain cadence.

Will Johnson


------------------
Perhaps cadence is the wrong word.
What I meant to imply is something like rhythm, poetic-flow.
Something like that.
Will Johnson



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp0 03000000025
4Cool
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InnleggSkrevet: 07 Feb 2008 20:13:06    Tittel: Re: Italian origins Svar med Sitat

Leo,

Christian Settipani, in his latest book "Continuite des elites a Byzance
durant les siecles obscurs", discusses this family in Appendix IV.

He gives

1. Alberic, duc of Spoleto x Marozzia (whose parents are traced back by
Settipani, with couple of uncertain links, til beginning of 8th century)
|
2. Alberic II, died 954, prince of the Romans
| (uncertain link)
3. Gregorius, died 1005/1013; count of Tusculum
|
4. Alberic III, + approx. 1035, count of Tusculum
|
5. Gregorius II, died 1058/1064, count of Tusculum
|
6. Gregorius III, died 1099/1105, count of Tusculum
|
7. Petrus, occurs in 1077 when he makes a donation to a church in Monte
Porzio, probably the same person as Petrus, died 1115/1145, lord of
Colonna and Monte Porzio, father of Oddo, died approx. 1151, lord of
Colonna, ancestor of the Colonna family

Settipani refers to Carocci (Baroni di Roma, 1993) and Guarnieri (I conti
di Tusculo, 1997/9Cool.

Much more on this family can be found in Settipani's book.

Willem Nabuurs





Sitat:
George Williams in his great book on the papal families, on page 12, has a
family tree which shows ancestors and descendants of Alberico III, Count
of Tusculum.

He belongs to a fascinating family, his great-uncle is pope John XII, his
brothers are popes John XIX and Benedict VIII, on top of that he is the
father of pope Benedict IX. However I am interested in an other line of
his descendants.

From Gregorio II the information came from Genealogisches Handbuch des
Adels, Fuerstlich Haeuser 1959 page 430

1.Alberico III, Count of Tusculum
father of
2.Gregorio II, Count of Tusculum, 1030-1054
|
3.Gregorio III died 1126
|
4.Pietro I, signore della Colonna 1078-1108-married Emilia Contessa di
Palestrina
|
5.Pietro II signore della Colonna mentioned in 1116
|
6.Oddone signore della Colonna mentioned in 1151
|
and so on.

Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, shows that generations 4-5-6 are based
on secure information, but all earlier generations, every generation, is
in question.

Now I found a fascinating book about "the families that made Rome", by
Canadian Anthony Majanlahti and he is pretty blunt with his opinion about
the origins of the Colonna family:
"The family established itself in Rome by the end of the twelfth century,
but a certain fog hovers over their origins. Some authorities assert their
descent from the family of the counts of Tusculum, though the only basis
for this is the geographical proximity of the power bases of the two
families."

Then he mentions how others want to claim this family descended from
Julius Caesar and thus from the goddess Venus.

Anthony Majanlahti agrees with Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, that the
first acceptable Colonna is Pietro I 1078-1108

And so, sadly, I am going to disbelieve George Williams who gives a
slightly differing line of descent, and I am going to disconnect Pietro I
from Gregorio III

Does anyone have better information? Whether it restores the link or not?

With many thanks
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra
















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InnleggSkrevet: 07 Feb 2008 23:41:09    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

On 23 jan, 10:35, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

<...>
Sitat:
We don't know when Bianca died, there are several conflicting reports and
indications. The most plausible timing is before the wedding of her daughter
to Ioannes Batatzes in 1244,

That marriage has been now redated to end 1240/early 1241: see Andreas
Kiesewetter, Die Heirat zwischen Konstanze-Anna von Hohenstaufen und
Kaiser Johannes III. Batatzes von Nikaia (Ende 1240 oder Anfang 1241)
und der Angriff des Johannes Batatzes auf Konstantinopel im Mai oder
Juni 1241, Römische Historische Mitteilungen 41: 1999, pp. 239-250.

Pierre
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InnleggSkrevet: 08 Feb 2008 02:08:17    Tittel: Re: Italian origins Svar med Sitat

Dear Willem,

Many thanks for this. You had me almost go to the other computer to restore
the link. But your remarks, one between 2 and 3 (uncertain link) .and by
Pietro "probably the same person as", made me decide to leave the link cut.
It is a pity as Marozia is an fascinating ancestor to have.
With best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: "Willem Nabuurs" <wnabuur3@xs4all.nl>
To: <gen-medieval-l@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2008 4:13 AM
Subject: Re: Italian origins


Sitat:
Leo,

Christian Settipani, in his latest book "Continuite des elites a Byzance
durant les siecles obscurs", discusses this family in Appendix IV.

He gives

1. Alberic, duc of Spoleto x Marozzia (whose parents are traced back by
Settipani, with couple of uncertain links, til beginning of 8th century)
|
2. Alberic II, died 954, prince of the Romans
| (uncertain link)
3. Gregorius, died 1005/1013; count of Tusculum
|
4. Alberic III, + approx. 1035, count of Tusculum
|
5. Gregorius II, died 1058/1064, count of Tusculum
|
6. Gregorius III, died 1099/1105, count of Tusculum
|
7. Petrus, occurs in 1077 when he makes a donation to a church in Monte
Porzio, probably the same person as Petrus, died 1115/1145, lord of
Colonna and Monte Porzio, father of Oddo, died approx. 1151, lord of
Colonna, ancestor of the Colonna family

Settipani refers to Carocci (Baroni di Roma, 1993) and Guarnieri (I conti
di Tusculo, 1997/9Cool.

Much more on this family can be found in Settipani's book.

Willem Nabuurs





George Williams in his great book on the papal families, on page 12, has
a
family tree which shows ancestors and descendants of Alberico III, Count
of Tusculum.

He belongs to a fascinating family, his great-uncle is pope John XII, his
brothers are popes John XIX and Benedict VIII, on top of that he is the
father of pope Benedict IX. However I am interested in an other line of
his descendants.

From Gregorio II the information came from Genealogisches Handbuch des
Adels, Fuerstlich Haeuser 1959 page 430

1.Alberico III, Count of Tusculum
father of
2.Gregorio II, Count of Tusculum, 1030-1054
|
3.Gregorio III died 1126
|
4.Pietro I, signore della Colonna 1078-1108-married Emilia Contessa di
Palestrina
|
5.Pietro II signore della Colonna mentioned in 1116
|
6.Oddone signore della Colonna mentioned in 1151
|
and so on.

Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, shows that generations 4-5-6 are based
on secure information, but all earlier generations, every generation, is
in question.

Now I found a fascinating book about "the families that made Rome", by
Canadian Anthony Majanlahti and he is pretty blunt with his opinion about
the origins of the Colonna family:
"The family established itself in Rome by the end of the twelfth century,
but a certain fog hovers over their origins. Some authorities assert
their
descent from the family of the counts of Tusculum, though the only basis
for this is the geographical proximity of the power bases of the two
families."

Then he mentions how others want to claim this family descended from
Julius Caesar and thus from the goddess Venus.

Anthony Majanlahti agrees with Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, that
the
first acceptable Colonna is Pietro I 1078-1108

And so, sadly, I am going to disbelieve George Williams who gives a
slightly differing line of descent, and I am going to disconnect Pietro I
from Gregorio III

Does anyone have better information? Whether it restores the link or not?

With many thanks
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra
















-------------------------------
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GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message




-------------------------------
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--
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Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.21/1265 - Release Date: 2/7/2008
11:17 AM

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InnleggSkrevet: 08 Feb 2008 03:48:42    Tittel: Re: Admiral Thomas Tucker Tudor of Barbados Svar med Sitat

Hi Richard,

Actually I meant Bermuda, so it must be the same one. In fact, I remember
seeing a Marmaduke Darell on the pedigree, which intrigued me as I have (if
I remember) 5 ancestors by that name associated with Littlecote, Wiltshire
on my mother's side. I have not got so far back on my father's side, which
is where this Tucker comes in.

Does anyone have data on 18th century Tuckers of this family?

best,

Monica



On Feb 7, 2008 7:47 PM, R C <leliwite@hotmail.com> wrote:

Sitat:
If the Barbadian Tuckers are related to the Bermudian Tuckers then they
will
also descend from the DARELL family of Calehill, and share a common
mediaeval ancestor with my forebears the DARELL family of Littlecote,
Ramsbury manor, Wilts., ancestors of the ERNLE baronets of Wilts. and the
current PLUNKETT-ERNLE-ERLE-DRAX family and present Lord DUNSANY.

Richard

-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Monica Kanellis
Sent: 7-Feb-08 3:51 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Admiral Thomas Tucker Tudor of Barbados

Hi everyone,

I know this is not a medieval question, but if anyone is familiar with the
Tuckers of Barbadoes I would appreciate some help off-list.

best,

Monica

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

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InnleggSkrevet: 08 Feb 2008 13:46:52    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

"pierre_aronax@hotmail.com" <pierre_aronax@hotmail.fr> wrote in message
news:08b0f5b5-3bc5-495a-9fdb-7c329ffc5ef2@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com. ..
Sitat:
On 23 jan, 10:35, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

...
We don't know when Bianca died, there are several conflicting reports
and
indications. The most plausible timing is before the wedding of her
daughter
to Ioannes Batatzes in 1244,

That marriage has been now redated to end 1240/early 1241: see Andreas
Kiesewetter, Die Heirat zwischen Konstanze-Anna von Hohenstaufen und
Kaiser Johannes III. Batatzes von Nikaia (Ende 1240 oder Anfang 1241)
und der Angriff des Johannes Batatzes auf Konstantinopel im Mai oder
Juni 1241, Römische Historische Mitteilungen 41: 1999, pp. 239-250.

Thank you, Pierre, I was not aware of this very interesting article.

Kiesewetter pointed out that the Andrea Dandolo, doge of Venice, writing in
the mid-14th century about Johannes Batatzes at the time of his attack on
Constantinople in May or June 1241, stated that the Nicaean ruler "had
married the daughter of Emperor Frederick" (Federici imperatoris filiam sibi
copulaverat).

Dandolo's chronicle drew on Venetian sources that have since been destroyed.
This report was overlooked by historians, mostly preferring to follow
Matthew Paris who referred to the marriage in the context of events in
1244 - Kiesewetter suggested that this was only meant to indicate a terminus
ante quem for the wedding. But his argument on just these two aspects is a
bit less than convincing to me: first, Matthew Paris - whatever he meant -
was not an expert on the sequence of events in Anatolia anyway, and secondly
the pluperfect tense used by Dandolo may not have been accurate as to the
real chronology a century earlier for all we know.

However, there is a document in the cartulary of the Lembiotissa monastery
naming Johannes along with his wife Anna, dated March AM 6750 (AD 1242) but
giving the indiction corresponding instead to March 1243. Either way -
although Kiesewetter does not state this or pursue the related question at
all - here is proof that Constance (Anna) was married by soon after the
death of Isabel of England on 1 December 1241, and probably too soon after
for Frederick to have married Bianca Lancia following the death of his third
wife, if we can assume that Johannes Batatzes would not have accepted an
illegitimate bride.

This in turn fixes Bianca's marriage in extremis as most probably taking
place between the death of Frederick's second wife in May 1228 and his
marriage to Isabel in July 1235; so (back to Kiesewetter again) it appears
that Johannes Batatzes was probably hoping for support from his
father-in-law Frederick when launching the attack on Constantinople in May
or June 1241.

Not perfectly conclusive, since Dandolo could have been approximate in his
version of the chronology, and/or in his language, and the charter could
have been written in March 1243 allowing for Bianca to have married Frederck
after 1 December 1241 and her daughter to have been sent to Nicaea and
married in the interval of 15+ months after that.

Nevertheless Kiesewetter made a strong case, correcting for me the
conclusion of Natale Ferro in the paper from the 1991 congress, cited
before, that Bianca probably died in 1244.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 08 Feb 2008 22:32:45    Tittel: RE: Admiral Thomas Tucker Tudor of Barbados Svar med Sitat

Hi Monica,



The lineage of the Bermudian Tuckers is partially given in listmember Leo
van de Pas's excellent website www.genealogics.org
<http://www.genealogics.org/> .



There, the Darell link appears under Mary Dayrell (another version of the
name), though the links to John Darell of Calehill are not shown as yet.



Additionally, there have been a number of books published on the Tucker
family. You can check for them in the catalogue at www.familysearch.org
<http://www.familysearch.org/> where I know several of them appear.



Cheers,



Richard



_____

From: Monica Kanellis [mailto:monica.kanellis@gmail.com]
Sent: 7-Feb-08 5:49 PM
To: R C
Cc: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Admiral Thomas Tucker Tudor of Barbados



Hi Richard,

Actually I meant Bermuda, so it must be the same one. In fact, I remember
seeing a Marmaduke Darell on the pedigree, which intrigued me as I have (if
I remember) 5 ancestors by that name associated with Littlecote, Wiltshire
on my mother's side. I have not got so far back on my father's side, which
is where this Tucker comes in.

Does anyone have data on 18th century Tuckers of this family?

best,

Monica




On Feb 7, 2008 7:47 PM, R C <leliwite@hotmail.com> wrote:

If the Barbadian Tuckers are related to the Bermudian Tuckers then they will
also descend from the DARELL family of Calehill, and share a common
mediaeval ancestor with my forebears the DARELL family of Littlecote,
Ramsbury manor, Wilts., ancestors of the ERNLE baronets of Wilts. and the
current PLUNKETT-ERNLE-ERLE-DRAX family and present Lord DUNSANY.

Richard


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Monica Kanellis
Sent: 7-Feb-08 3:51 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Admiral Thomas Tucker Tudor of Barbados

Hi everyone,

I know this is not a medieval question, but if anyone is familiar with the
Tuckers of Barbadoes I would appreciate some help off-list.

best,

Monica

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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InnleggSkrevet: 08 Feb 2008 22:57:47    Tittel: RE: Admiral Thomas Tucker Tudor of Barbados Svar med Sitat

Also, on ancestry.com, there is the scanned book "Genealogy of the Tucker
family from various authentic sources" dealing with the Bermudian Tucker
ancestry.

Generally, even without a personal membership for ancestry.com, one can gain
access via a local library that has access. Here in Vancouver, the main
branch of the public library has it, for example.

Cheers,

Richard


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of R C
Sent: 8-Feb-08 12:33 PM
To: 'Monica Kanellis'
Cc: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: RE: Admiral Thomas Tucker Tudor of Barbados

Hi Monica,



The lineage of the Bermudian Tuckers is partially given in listmember Leo
van de Pas's excellent website www.genealogics.org
<http://www.genealogics.org/> .



There, the Darell link appears under Mary Dayrell (another version of the
name), though the links to John Darell of Calehill are not shown as yet.



Additionally, there have been a number of books published on the Tucker
family. You can check for them in the catalogue at www.familysearch.org
<http://www.familysearch.org/> where I know several of them appear.



Cheers,



Richard



_____

From: Monica Kanellis [mailto:monica.kanellis@gmail.com]
Sent: 7-Feb-08 5:49 PM
To: R C
Cc: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Admiral Thomas Tucker Tudor of Barbados



Hi Richard,

Actually I meant Bermuda, so it must be the same one. In fact, I remember
seeing a Marmaduke Darell on the pedigree, which intrigued me as I have (if
I remember) 5 ancestors by that name associated with Littlecote, Wiltshire
on my mother's side. I have not got so far back on my father's side, which
is where this Tucker comes in.

Does anyone have data on 18th century Tuckers of this family?

best,

Monica




On Feb 7, 2008 7:47 PM, R C <leliwite@hotmail.com> wrote:

If the Barbadian Tuckers are related to the Bermudian Tuckers then they will
also descend from the DARELL family of Calehill, and share a common
mediaeval ancestor with my forebears the DARELL family of Littlecote,
Ramsbury manor, Wilts., ancestors of the ERNLE baronets of Wilts. and the
current PLUNKETT-ERNLE-ERLE-DRAX family and present Lord DUNSANY.

Richard


-----Original Message-----
From: gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com
[mailto:gen-medieval-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Monica Kanellis
Sent: 7-Feb-08 3:51 PM
To: gen-medieval@rootsweb.com
Subject: Admiral Thomas Tucker Tudor of Barbados

Hi everyone,

I know this is not a medieval question, but if anyone is familiar with the
Tuckers of Barbadoes I would appreciate some help off-list.

best,

Monica

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message




-------------------------------
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InnleggSkrevet: 09 Feb 2008 07:07:10    Tittel: Zouche Svar med Sitat

Could anyone shed light on these two mentions in Calendar of Entries
in the Papal Registers....?

1342. To the bishop of Exeter. The like in regard to William le Souche
of North Molton, the son of a priest. p. 66
1352 Katherine de la Souche, damsel, of the diocese of Norwich





http://books.google.com/books?id=klNg4OkeU0oC&pg=PA734&dq=de+la+souche +norfolk&lr=#PPA66,M1
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InnleggSkrevet: 09 Feb 2008 21:38:07    Tittel: Re: Zouche Svar med Sitat

On Feb 8, 9:07 pm, "Patricia A. Junkin" <pajun...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Sitat:
Could anyone shed light on these two mentions in Calendar of Entries
in the Papal Registers....?

1342. To the bishop of Exeter. The like in regard to William le Souche
of North Molton, the son of a priest. p. 66


Do we know any Zouches in that part of the country?

taf
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InnleggSkrevet: 09 Feb 2008 22:42:39    Tittel: Re: Zouche Svar med Sitat

Thank you for responding.

North Molton was held by the la Zouches from the time of Alan when in
1172 he is first mentioned in England when the sheriff of Northants.
answered for the scutage due from one knight’s fee on his land....also
known as Alan of North Molton, he was fined in Devon 1185.(CP7/2-931)
It descends in the primogeniture line until Alan la Zouche died in
1313 per IPM holding of the king in chief. 1313 Alan la Zousche to
grant land in North Molton, and the advowson of the church there, to
the abbot and convent of Lilleshall, retaining the manor of North
Molton. Devon. 6 EDWARD II. C 143/93/2. While the grant of other
manors in delineated in the IPM of Alan to William of Richard's Castle
or William of Haryngsworth, nothing is said of North Molton. In TITLE
DEEDS DEVON MANORS NORTH MOLTON- ref. 69/M/2/93 - date: 28 March 1550
1) John Zouche, knight, Lord of Zouche, Sentmore and Cantilupe. Can
we assume it was granted to the Haryngsworth line?

The curiosity of the citation is that it seems to indicate William la
Zouche was the son of a priest.
1342. To the bishop of Exeter. The like in regard to William le Souche
of North Molton, the son of a priest. p. 66.
The generation appears to be of William and Maude Lovell, but then
could he have been of another son?
I am perplexed.
Pat


On Feb 9, 2008, at 1:38 PM, taf@clearwire.net wrote:

Sitat:
On Feb 8, 9:07 pm, "Patricia A. Junkin" <pajun...@bellsouth.net
wrote:
Could anyone shed light on these two mentions in Calendar of Entries
in the Papal Registers....?

1342. To the bishop of Exeter. The like in regard to William le
Souche
of North Molton, the son of a priest. p. 66


Do we know any Zouches in that part of the country?

taf

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InnleggSkrevet: 10 Feb 2008 00:36:05    Tittel: Re: Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany, 1340-1420, and dau. Svar med Sitat

Here is a new website, Canadian, to add to this confusion over
the mother of the wife of the Duke of Albany:

http://www.robertsewell.ca/index.html


http://www.robertsewell.ca/charlemagne.html

Charlemagne the Great

This page was set up by Robert Sewell in July 2006 to show the
descent of the Sewell Family from Charlemagne and his ancestors.
Robert Sewell graduated from McMaster University (Hamilton, Ontario,
Canada) in 1967 with a B.Sc. degree in chemistry. After a year of
studies at the University of Toronto's College of Education, he taught
high school science in Collingwood, Ontario for a year and then taught
chemistry, physics and general science in Hamilton, Ontario for twenty-
nine years. Robert Sewell retired from teaching in June 1998.
Click to Contact Robert Sewell
Please visit the Sewell Genealogy Site Map for other pages in this
series.
Sources
* Sewell Vincent Sample: Letters
* George E. Cokayne: The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland,
Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Sutton Publishing,
August 24, 2000
* Frederick L. Weis and Walter L. Sheppard: Ancestral Roots, 7th
Edition, Baltimore, 1999
* World Book Millenium 2000 Deluxe Edition, (c) 1999 World Book Inc., (c)
IBM Corp.
* Microsoft Encarta Encyclopædia 99, (c) 1993-1998 Microsoft
Corporation
* Norman F. Cantor (ed.) The Encyclopædia of the Middle Ages, New
York, 1999
* Berhard Grun, The Timetables of History, New York, 1991
* Patrick J. Geary: Before France and Germany, Oxford University
Press, 1988
* George Andrews Moriarty: The Plantagenet Ancestry of King Edward
III and Queen Philippa, Mormon Pioneer Genealogical Society, Salt Lake
City, Utah, 1985.
* The Book of History (18 Volumes), London, 1914
* Richard Thomson: An Historical Essay on the Magna Charta of King
John (London, 1829)
* Edward Gibbon: The History Of The Decline And Fall Of The Roman
Empire (1776 - 1788)
* Einhard: Vita Karoli Magni (ca. 830; The Life of Charlemagne,
translated by A.J.Grant, 1922)
* Periodical Historical Atlas of Europe, http://www.euratlas.com
* Mediæval History Guide, http://historymedren.about.com/index.htm
* Brian Tompsett, Royal Genealogical Data, http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/genealogy/royal/
* Catholic Online Saints and Angels, http://saints.catholic.org/index.shtml
* The Kings of France, http://www.beyond.fr/history/kings.html

The Franks and their Kingdoms
Franks were members of a confederation of Germanic peoples that
attacked the Roman Empire beginning in the A.D. 200's. The Franks
were divided into two branches, the Salians and the Ripuarians. The
Salians settled in the Low Countries on the lower Rhine, near the
North Sea. The Ripuarians moved into the region around what are now
the cities of Aachen, Trier and Cologne, Germany, in the region of the
middle Rhine.
Frankish history is divided into two periods. These periods are
the Merovingian, from about 481 to 751, and the Carolingian, 751 to
987. Charlemagne, who was king of the Franks from 768 to 814, created
a vast empire. In 800, Pope Leo III crowned him emperor of the
Romans. After the time of Charlemagne, the Frankish empire began to
break up into what later became the kingdoms of France, Germany, and
Italy.
Our genealogical history begins with Clovis, a Ripuarian Frank who
was King of Cologne in the early 5th century. It should be noted that
many of the kings at this period of history were really just tribal
chieftans; and that this is not Clovis I (466? - 511) who founded of
the Merovingian Dynasty.

Generation One
Clovis, a Ripuarian Frank who was the King of Cologne circa 420 AD.
Frankish "kings" at this time were really just local tribal
chieftains.
fl. ca. 420 (flourished circa 420)
Clovis had a son:
* Childebert
Generation Two
Childebert who was a the King of Cologne circa 450 A.D.
fl. ca. 450
Childebert had a son:
* Siegbert
Generation Three
Siegbert the Lame who was the King of Cologne.
Murdered in 509
Seigbert was murdered by his son:
* Cloderic
Generation Four
Cloderic the Parricide who was briefly the King of Cologne. Cloderic
murdered his father in 509, and was himself murdered the same year by
Clovis I, the founder of the Merovingian Dynasty.

For more about Clovis I and the times in which he lived, click on The
Merovingians.
Cloderic married a kinswoman of Clothilda, the Burgundian Princess and
wife of Clovis I. They had a son:
* Murideric
Generation Five
Murideric, Lord of Vitrey
Murideric was "very young" in 509 when his father was murdered by
Clovis I.
Murideric revolted against Thierry (I), a son of Clovis (I), who
killed him.
Murideric married Perthois and they had the following sons:
* St. Gondulfus
* Duke Bodegisil (I) who died in 581. Bodigisil married first to
Palatina, a daughter of Gallus Magnus, a Gallo-Roman Senator and
Bishop of Troyes (elected 562). Bodigisil married second to Sancha, a
Gascow.
Generation Six
St. Gondulfus
Born in 524
Died on July 6, 607.
St. Gondulfus was Bishop of Tongres (consecrated in 599), Governor of
Marseilles in 581 and Mayor of the Palace to Theibert (I).
St. Gondulfus is almost certainly the father of Duke Bodegisil (II);
see F.L. Weis, Ancestral Roots, Baltimore, 1999, 190-6. Other earlier
works including George Andrews Moriarty: The Plantagenet Ancestry of
King Edward III and Queen Philippa, Mormon Pioneer Genealogical
Society, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1985, pages 5 and 241, show St.
Gondulfus' brother Duke Bodegisil (I) as the father of Duke Bodegisil
(II).
While it may seem strange to us to-day for a "saint" and a "bishop" to
have had children, this was not the case in early mediæval times.
Married clergy were the rule rather than the exception until Gregorian
reforms of the 11th century. By the late middle ages, there were
virtually no married clergy.
St. Gondulfus was a political figure; he was Governor of Marseilles
and Mayor of the Palace and was not consecrated until quite an old man
in 599. As well, it was very unusual among the early Franks for a son
to have the same name as his father as would be the case if Bodegisil
(I) had been the father of Bodegisil (II). The same name was used to
indicate a close kinship such as the uncle and nephew relationship
here.
St. Gondulfus had a son:
* Duke Bodegisil (II)
Generation Seven
Duke Bodegisil (II) was the Governor of Aquitane.
Killed in 588
Duke Bodegisil (II) married Oda, a Suevian and they had a son:
* Arnoself
Generation Eight
St. Arnoself of Metz was the Bishop of Metz and is also known as
Arnold, Arnulf and Arnuiph.
He was a member of the court of the Frankish king Theodebert (II) of
Austrasia. A noble, Arnoself married Doda, and their son was
Ansegisel. Doda became a nun, and Arnulf made plans to enter a
monastery but was named the bishop of Metz around 616. He continued
his court services, making Clotaire of Neustria the king of Austrasia.
He also served as counsellor to Dagobert, King Clotaire's son. In 626,
Arnulf retired to a hermitage at Remiremont, France. His feastday is
July 18.
Born in 582
Died on August 16, 641
St. Arnoself married Clothilde (Doda) who became a nun at Trèves in
612
St. Arnoself and Clothilde had a son:
* Ansigise
Generation Nine
Duke Ansigise who was Mayor of the Palace in Austrasia in 632 and is
also known as Anchises, Ansegisel and Ansegilius.
Born circa 602
Died (murdered) in 685
Married: St. Bégue or Begga, daughter of Pépin the Old of Landen who
was Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia in 623 and a counsellor of
Dagobert (I), King of Austrasia. St. Bégue's mother was St. Itta, said
to be a daughter of Arnoldus, Bishop of Metz, said to be a son of
Ansbertus, the Gallo-Roman Senator and his wife Blithilda. On the
death of her husband in the year 691, St. Bégue built a church and
convent at Andenne on the Meuse River and died there. Her feast day is
December 17th.
Duke Ansigise and St. Bégue had a son:
* Pépin
Generation Ten
Pépin of Heristal who was Mayor of the Palace in Austrasia.
Born circa 635
Died on December 16, 714
Pépin married first to Plectrud, a daughter of Hugobert and Irmina,
and they had the following sons:
* Drogo, Duke of Champagne
* Grimoald (II), Mayor of the Palace of Austrasia
Pépin was associated with Aupais (Aupaïs, Elphide or Chalpaida?) who
is said to have been be a concubine. Historically, this referred to a
secondary or inferior wife and may help explain why some sources claim
that Pépin and Aupais were married. They had a son:
* Charles Martel
Generation Eleven
Charles "The Hammer" Martel who was the Mayor of the Palace in
Austrasia, and as such, was the virtual ruler of France. Please click
on Charles Martel for further details.
Born in 676
Died on October 22, 741
Charles Martel married first to Rotrou or Chrotrud who was perhaps a
daughter of St. Liévin, Bishop of Trèves. Charles and Rotrou had the
following children:
* Carloman who ruled Neustria, Burgundy and Provence as Mayor of the
Palace from 741 until 747 when he retired from political life and
became a monk at the Monastery of Monte Casino. He was succeeded by
his younger brother Pepin the Short.
* Landrée who married Count Sigrand
* Jerome
* Pépin the Short
Charles Martel married second to Swanhilde or Sunnichilde, daughter of
Theodebert, Duke of Bavaria and they had the following children:
* Grifo, who was endowed with a portion of his father's land, but was
displaced and imprisoned by his half brothers Carloman and Pépin the
Short.
* Chiltrud, who married in 749 to Odilo, Duke of Bavaria. In 757,
their son Duke Tassilo III of Bavaria the magnates of Bavaria
acknowledged themselves as vassals of Pépin the Short.

Generation Twelve
Pépin the Short, King of the Franks who was Mayor of the Palace in
Austrasia and who had himself declared King of the Franks in 751.
Please click on Pépin the Short for further details.
Born circa 715
Died on September 24, 768
Pépin the Short married in 740 to Bertha or Bertrada II of Laon also
known as "Bertha Broadfoot". She was the daughter of Caribert (or
Herbert), Count of Laon and granddaughter of Bertha, a Merovingian
Princess who was in turn a daughter of Thierry (III), King of
Austrasia, Neustria and Burgundy.
(George Andrews Moriarty: Plantagenet Ancestry Salt Lake City, Utah,
1985, page 232)
Please click on Bertha for this line.
Some sources, eg. World Book 2000, (c) 1999 IBM Corporation, suggest
that Bertrada or Bertha was known as "Queen Goose-Foot" or "Goose-
Footed Bertha", and is the original "Mother Goose". Hence, we can
also list "Mother Goose" among our illustrious forebears.
Pépin the Short and Bertha of Laon had the following children:
* Charlemagne, Emperor of the West
* Carloman of the Franks, King of Franks, born about 751, died in 771
* Gisela, Abbess of Chelles, who had a son Rowland, who had a
daughter Juliana who married her first cousin once removed,Charles the
younger, Duke of Ingelheim who was a son of Charlemagne.
* Pippin who died young



Generation Thirteen
Charlemagne, Emperor of the West ruled jointly with his younger
brother Carloman from 768 until 771, at which time Carloman died.
Charlemagne greatly extended his empire, and was crowned emperor by
Pope Leo III on December 25, 800. Charlemagne was predeceased by two
of his sons, and was succeeded by his sole surviving son, Louis the
Pious. Click on Charlemagne for further details.
Born on April 2, 742 at either Ingolheim or Aachen (Aix-la-Chapelle)
Died on January 28, 814 at Aachen
Charlemagne married in 771 at Aachen to Hildegarde of Vinzgau, and
they had the following children:
* Pépin (I), King of Italy
* Charles the younger, Duke of Ingelheim, born 772 and died 811
before his father. Charles married Juliana, who was his first cousin
once removed.
* Louis (I) the Pious of Aquitaine, King of France, whose 7X great
granddaughter Mathilda of Flanders married in 1053 to William the
Conqueror. Please click on Mathilda for this descent.
Charlemagne had additional wives, an abundance of girlfriends and many
more children.

Generation Fourteen
Pépin (I), King of Italy who was crowned King of Italy by his father
Charlemagne in 781.
Born in April 773
Died on July 8, 810, before his father Charlemagne.
Pépin married in 795 to Bertha who may have been his cousin; a
daughter of his Uncle Carloman. Pépin and Bertha had a son:
* Bernhard, King of Italy, born circa 797

Generation Fifteen
Bernhard, King of Italy who revolted in July 817 when his uncle, Louis
(I) the Pious who had succeeded Charlemagne as Emperor, proceeded to
divide the empire among his sons, Bernhard's cousins.
Bernhard doubtless felt that his father Pépin had been crowned
King of Italy by Charlemagne and that he should follow his father as
the full fledged King of Italy. Louis the Pious, however, had a
different view of the situation. Seeing as Pépin had died before
Charlemagne, Louis the Pious felt that as Charlemagne's heir, he was
overall king or emperor; and that Bernhard was perhaps sort of a sub-
king. Bernhard's revolt didn't work, and he was forced to submit to
Louis in December 817.
Eventually, by the Treaty of Verdun in 843, the territory that had
been Bernhard's Kingdom of Italy was awarded to Louis the Pious' son
Lothaire who became Holy Roman Emperor.
Please click to see a Map of the Carolingian Empire after the
Treaty of Verdun of 843.
Born circa 797
Died on August 17, 818 at St. Amrosius, Mailand
Berhard married in 813 to Kunigunde (also Cunegonde or Cunigunde) and
they had a son:
* Seigneur Pépin (II), Count of Peronne

Generation Sixteen
Seigneur Pépin de Peronne
Born in 817
Died after 840
Seigneur Pépin was probably the Lord or Count of Peronne and St.
Quentin in the Vermandois; an area in Picardy in northern France.
Seigneur Pépin had the following children:
* Herbert (I), Count of Senlis
* a daughter who married Gui, Count of Senlis. Their children
included:
* Bernard, Count of Senlis was a friend and counsellor of Hugh Capet
"the Great" of Neustria.
* Poppa who married in 886 to Rolf, 1st Duke of Normandy. Click on
Rolf the Ganger for this line. For further details including an
excerpt from George Andrews Moriarty: The Plantagenet Ancestry of King
Edward III and Queen Philippa, Mormon Pioneer Genealogical Society,
Salt Lake City, Utah, 1985, page 226; please Click Here.

Generation Seventeen
Herbert (I), Count of Senlis and Vermandois
Born circa 840
Died (murdered) circa 900 - 908
Herbert (I) married Bertha, a daugher of Guerri (I), Count of Morvois
and they had the following children:
* Sprota or Adela of Senlis who married William (I) Longsword 2nd
Duke of Normandy as his first wife. Click on William Longsword for
this line.
* Herbert (II), Count of Vermandois
* Beatrice de Vermandois, born in 880, who married Robert (I), King
of France. Please click on Robert (I), King of France for this
descent.

Generation Eighteen
Herbert (II), Count of Vermandois
Herbert (II) married Liegarde (or Hildebrante) a daughter of Robert
(I), King of France and his first wife Aelis. (See Capet, Generation
Nine), and they had the following children:
* Alice of Vermandois, born 910, who married Arnolph "the Great",
Count of Flanders. Please click on Alice of Vermandois for this line.
* Robert, Count of Troyes
* Albert, Count of Vermandois
* Luitgarda of Vermandois, born about 915 who married William (I)
Longsword 2nd Duke of Normandy as his second wife. See William
Longsword.

Generation Nineteen
Robert, Count of Troyes and Meaux
Born circa 910
Died circa 967/68
Robert married Adelaide, a daughter of Giselbert, Count of Burgundy
and his wife Ermengarde.
Robert and Adelaide had the following daughters:
* Adelaide de Vermandois who was born in 950 and died circa 975 -
978. Adelaide married Geoffrey (I) "Grisgonelle", Count of Anjou (died
July 21, 987), son of Fulk (II) "the Good", Count of Anjou. Adelaide
and Geoffrey had the following children:
* Fulk (III) "the Black", Count of Anjou (died June 21, 1040) who
married Hildegarde; they had a daughter:
* Ermengarde, heiress of Anjou (born circa 1010/1015 and died 21
March, 1076) who married Aubri-Geoffrey, Count of Gâtinaise.
* Ermengarde of Anjou who married in 980 to Conan "the Crooked" Duke
of Brittany who died in 992. Ermengarde and Conan had a daughter:
* Judith of Brittany (982 - 1017) who married Richard (II) "the
Good", Duke of Normandy.

Albert (I) "the Pious", Count of Vermandois
Born circa 915
Died in 987
Albert married Gerberga of Lorraine. Click on The Merovingians for
Gerberga's descent from Clovis and the Merovingian Kings.
Adalbert and Gerberga had a son:
* Herbert (III), Count of Vermandois

Generation Twenty
Herbert (III), Count of Vermandois
Born circa 954
Died about 1000
Herbert married Ermengard, a daughter of Reinald, Count of Bar and
they had a son:
* Odo

Generation Twenty-one
Odo, Count of Vermandois
Born circa 1000
Died May 25, 1045
Odo married Parvie, Parrie or Parrè, and they had a son:
* Herbert (IV) Count of Vermandois

Generation Twenty-two
Herbert (IV), Count of Vermandois
Herbert (IV) married Adela, daughter of Raoul (III) Count of Valois
and the Vexin, and they had a daughter:
* Adelaide of Vermandois

Generation Twenty-three
Adelaide of Vermandois
Died in 1123
Adelaide married to Hugh "the Great" de Crépi, Count of Vermandois,
son of Henry (I) Capet, King of France and brother of Philip (I), King
of France. Click on Hugh "the Great" for details.
Adelaide and Hugh had a daughter:
* Isabel or Elizabeth de Crépi of Vermandois
After Hugh's death, Adelaide married secondly to Reinald, Count of
Clermont.

Generation Twenty-four
Isabel de Crépi of Vermandois who is also know as Elizabeth de Crépi
of Vermandois
Died before July 1147
Isabel married first to Robert de Beaumont, Count of Meulan. Robert
de Beaumont, son of Roger, Seigneur de Beaumont, was present at the
Battle of Hastings.
Isabel and Robert had the following children:
* Waleran de Beaumont (1104 - 1166, twin brother of Robert de
Beaumont), Count of Meulan and Earl of Worcester who married circa
1141 to Agnes de Montfort,a daughter of Amauri de Montfort, Count of
Évreux. They had a son:
* Sir Robert de Beaumont (died in 1207), Count of Meulan.
* Robert de Beaumont (1104 - 1168, twin brother of Waleran de
Beaumont), 2nd Earl of Leicester who married Amice de Montfort, a
daughter of Ralph de Gael de Montfort, Seigneur of Montfort de Gael in
Brittany. Their children:
* Hawise de Beaumont who married William Fitz Robert, Earl of
Gloucester
* Sir Robert de Beaumont (born before 1135, died at Durazzo, Greece,
1190), 3rd Earl of Leicester, married Petronilla de Grandmesnil, their
daughter:
* Margaret de Beaumont married Saher de Quincy.
* Hugh de Beaumont, Earl of Bedford.
* Adeline who married Hugh IV, Seigneur of Montfort-sur-Risle.
* Aubrée who married Hugh II, Seigneur of Chateauneuf-en-Thimerais.
* Maud who married William Louvel, Seigneur of Ivri and Brevel.
* Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Beaumont who first "had an affair" with
King Henry I of England and later married Gilbert FitzGilbert de
Clare.
* a daughter whose name is not known.
Isabel married secondly circa 1118 to William de Warenne, 2nd Earl of
Warren & Surrey and they had the following children:
* William de Warenne, 3rd Earl of Warren & Surrey, born in 1119;
whose daughter married Hamlin Plantagenet. Click on Hamlin
Plantagenet for this line.
* Gundred de Warren
* Adelaide (or Ada) de Warren
* Ralph de Warenne
* Rainald de Warenne

Generation Twenty-five
Adelaide de Warren who is also known as Ada de Warren.
Died in 1178
Adelaide married in 1139 to Henry, Earl of Huntingdon who was the son
of David (I) "the Saint", King of Scotland and Matilda of
Nothumberland. Henry was next in line as King of Scotland, but he
died about a year before his father. When David (I) died in 1153, he
was succeeded Henry's son, Malcolm (IV).
Adelaide de Warren and Henry of Huntingdon had the following children:
* Malcolm (IV) "the Maiden", King of Scotland, born on March 20,
1141/42
* William (I) "the Lion", King of Scotland, born in 1143
* Margaret of Huntingdon, Countess of Hereford
* Ada
* David, 9th Earl of Huntingdon, born about 1144
* Maud
* Isabella
* Marjory

Generation Twenty-six
David, 9th Earl of Huntingdon
Please click on Earl of Huntingdon for the continuation of this line.

Scotland

This page was set up by Robert Sewell in JUne 2006 to show the
descent of the Kings of Scotland. Robert Sewell graduated from
McMaster University (Hamilton, Ontario, Canada) in 1967 with a B.Sc.
degree in chemistry. After a year of studies at the University of
Toronto's College of Education, he taught high school science in
Collingwood, Ontario for a year and then taught chemistry, physics and
general science in Hamilton, Ontario for twenty-nine years. Robert
Sewell retired from teaching in June 1998.
Click to Contact Robert Sewell
Please visit the Sewell Genealogy Site Map for other pages in this
series.
The material presented here has been drawn from numerous sources:
* Richard Thomson: An Historical Essay on the Magna Charta of King
John (London, 1829)
* The Book of History (18 Volumes), London, 1914
* Berhard Grun, The Timetables of History, New York, 1991
* Frederick Lewis Weis: The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215. Baltimore,
1999
* Frederick Lewis Weis: Ancestral Roots, Baltimore, 1999
* Norman F. Cantor (ed.) The Encyclopædia of the Middle Ages, New
York, 1999
* Sewell Vincent Sample: Letters
* Gary Boyd Roberts, The Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants, Baltimore,
2004
* Douglas Richarson: Magna Carta Ancestry, Balitmore, 2005
* Brian Tompsett, Royal Genealogical Data, University of Hull, 2005
* The British Monarchy Web Site, The Kings and Queens of Scotland
* Linda Bruce Caron, Scotland's Kings and Queens
A special ackowledgement is extended to
Sewell Vincent Sample
and
Carma Kathleen Wallace
who have provided much information and encouragement.
Some information came from sites which are no longer readily
accessable including:
* Encyclopædia Brittanica which is now a pay service.


In the early middle ages, Scotland consisted of four separate
kingdoms:
* Dalriada inhabitated by Scots,
* Strathclyde inhabited by Britons,
* The Kingdom of the Picts,
* Northumbria inhabited by Angles.
Scottish and Pictish families began intermarrying in the 8th
century, and their kingdoms were often ruled by the same king. The
monarchy of Scotland evolved from this union, known as the Kingdom of
Alba. By the late 9th century, the Kingdom of Alba began absorbing
the kingdoms of the Britons and Angles. Thus, through intermarriage
and conquest, the Scottish Kings of Dalriada emerged as the overall
Kings of Scotland.
The Scots of Dalriada claimed a legendary antiquity beginning with
Gaythelos, son of a King of Greece who went to Egypt during the time
of Moses where he married the eponymous Scoti, daughter of the
Pharaoh. Gaythelos, Scoti, and their family emigrated to Spain and
eventually several groups of their descendants emigrated to Ireland;
the final group under Simon Brek, whose grandson led a colony from
Ireland to northern Britain and named it "Scotia". In the year 330
BC, these Scots elected as their king Fergus, son of Ferehard; and
they remained in Scotland until 360 AD when they were driven back to
Ireland by the Picts and Britons. In the 5th century, they returned
to Scotia under the leadership of Fergus, son of Erc. Or so the story
goes.
History knows nothing of the Scots earlier than about 500 AD, but
at this point, the name of Fergus MorMacErc (Fergus, son of Erc)
emerges from the mists of legend as the King of Scots in Dalriada.
Thus, it is with Fergus that we will begin this genealogical record.


Kings of Dalriada
Generation One
Fergus MorMacErc
Acceded circa 490
Died (killed) 501

Generation Seven
Domongart (II) macDomnaill
Did not reign.
Died (killed) circa 673
Generation Two
Domangart (I) macFergusso
Married Feldelm Foltchain
Died circa 506

Generation Eight
Eochaidh "Crook Nose"
Ruled for about three years
Died (killed) circa 697
Generation Three
Gabhran macDomangairt
Married to Ingenach or Lleian
Died circa 559

Generation Nine
Eochaidh (III) macEchdach
Acceded circa 721
Died circa 733
Generation Four
Aedan macGabhran
Acceded circa 574, Died circa 608
Consecrated by his cousin St. Columba

Generation Ten
Aedh Find "The White"
Ruled for 30 years
Died in 778
Generation Five
Eochaidh Buidhe macAidan
Died circa 630

Generation Eleven
Eochaid "The Venemous"
Acceded in 780
Married to Unuistice, Princess of the Picts.
Generation Six
Domnall Brecc
Died at the Battle of Strathcarron circa 642

Generation Twelve
Alpin of Kintyre
Acceded in 834
Died (killed fighting the Picts) circa 837
The information in the Generations One to Twelve is taken from
Frederick Lewis Weis: Ancestral Roots, Baltimore, 1999 and from Brian
Tompsett, Royal Genealogical Data, University of Hull, 2005. Please
refer any additional sources, information, corrections and so on to
Robert Sewell.
It should be noted that in early mediæval Scotland, it was the
eldest and/or ablest male of the royal house, and not the heir of
line, that inherited the throne. This meant that any energetic male
connected with the royal line could assert a claim to the throne.
Thus, Kenneth (I) MacAlpin (838 - 858) was followed as king by his
brother Donald (I) (858 - 862). Kenneth's son Constantine (I) did not
become king until 862. The following is a genealogical record, and
not a list of Scotland's Kings. For the actual Kings and Queens of
Scotland, see:
Scotland's Kings and Queens, a brief sketch of each monarch from 843
to 1603.
Scottish Royal Lineage, a true genealogical account (from Burke's
Peerage) from 844 to date.
Scottish Royal Dynasties, a neat chart (using Adobe Acrobat Reader)
from 842 to 1625.
The History of the Scottish Crown, from the Queen's web site.

Generation Thirteen
Kenneth (I) MacAlpin who united the Scots and the Picts with the
establishment of the Kindom of Alba, which comprised Dalriada and the
Kingdom of the Picts.
Acceded: 839
Died: 859 at Forteviot, Perthshire and interred at the Isle of Iona,
Scotland
Kenneth MacAlpin had the following children:
* Constantine I
* Aedh (Ethus) "Swift-Foot" who was King of Alba 876 - 878
* Eochaid MacAlpin who married Rùn Macarthgail, King of Strathclyde.
Their son:
* Eocha ruled jointly with his cousin Giric as Kings of Alba 878 -
889
* a daughter who married Aed Findliath macNéill Caille O'Néill, King
of Ireland & Ailech
* a daughter who married Olaf, King of Dublin.

Generation Fourteen
Constantine (I) who was King of Alba and was beheaded or killed in a
battle against the Danes at Inverdorat, the Black Cove, Angus.
Acceded: 863
Died: 877 and interred at the Isle of Iona, Scotland
Constantine had a son:
* Donald (II)

Generation Fifteen
Donald (II) who was King of Alba and fought the Viking invaders
Acceded: 889
Died: 900 at Dun-fother in battle and interred at the Isle of Iona,
Scotland. To learn more about mediæval weaponry, click on Swords.
Donald had a son:
* Malcolm (I)

Generation Sixteen
Malcolm (I) who was King of Alba and was killed in battle by rebels
from Moray
Acceded: 943
Died: 954 in battle and interred at the Isle of Iona, Scotland
Malcolm had the following children:
* Dubh or Duf who was King of Alba 962 - 966, and was killed by his
third cousin Culen who then ruled as King of Alba 966 - 971. (Culen
in turn was killed by Ryderch, King of Strathclyde, whose daughter he
had kidnapped.) Dubh's great granddaughter was Gruoch who married
Macbeth who was King of Scotland 1040 - 1057. Gruoch was
Shakespeare's "Lady Macbeth".
* Kenneth (II)

Generation Seventeen
Kenneth (II) who was King of Alba. He acknowledged Edgar as King of
England, and was in return given Lothian. However, Kenneth invaded
Northumbria in 994, was defeated, and lost Lothian. He killed his
third cousin Culen and was in turn killed by Culen's son Constantine
(III) who then ruled as King of Alba 995 - 997.
Acceded: 971
Died: 995, killed at Finela's Castle, Fettercain and interred at the
Isle of Iona, Scotland
Kenneth married a princess of Leinster and had the following children:
* Malcolm (II)
* Dungal

Generation Eighteen
Malcolm (II) who was King of Alba. He formed an alliance with King
Owen the Bald of Strathclyde, and with Owen's help he regained Lothian
in 1018. Malcolm didn't have any sons; and to ensure the succession
of his grandson Duncan, he killed all the sons of his cousin Kenneth
(III) who had been King of Alba 997 - 1005.
Born: about 954
Acceded: March 25, 1005
Died: November 25, 1034 at Glamis Castle, Angus and interred at the
Isle of Iona, Scotland
Malcolm married an Irishwoman from Ossory, and they had the following
daughters:
* Dovada who married Finlay, Mormær (Earl or Thane) of Moray. They
had a son:
* Macbeth (of Shakespeare's "Macbeth")
* Bethoc or Beatrix, Heiress of Scone
* a daughter who married Sigurd the Stout, Earl of Orkney. Their son:
* Thorfinn, Earl of Orkney who married Ingibiorg Finnsdottir. After
Thorfinn's death circa 1056, Ingibiorg married second to Malcolm III
Cænnmor.

Generation Nineteen
Bethoc, Heiress of Scone
Bethoc married before 1008 to Crinan, Mormaær of Atholl and Abbot of
Dunkeld, and they had the following children:
* Duncan I
* Maldred, Lord of Allerdale
* two daughters

Generation Twenty
Duncan I the Gracious, King of Scotland, added Strathclyde to the
kingdom, and is thus considered to be the first king of a united
Scotland. His reign, however, was a period of disatrous wars and
internal strife; and ended in 1040 when he was defeated and killed in
battle by Macbeth, Mormær of Ross and Moray who then became king.
Despite Shakespeare's depiction to the contrary, Macbeth was an
honest monarch who was generous to the church; and as a grandson of
Malcolm (II), had as legitimate a claim to the throne as did Duncan.
As well, Macbeth's wife Gruoch was a greatX2 granddaughter of Malcolm
(I). Duncan's wife, on the other hand, was a relative of Siward, the
Viking Earl of Northumbria; which helps explain why Siward assisted
Duncan's sons in defeating Macbeth.
Click on Macbeth for Shakespeare's version of this period of
Scotland's history. In all fairness, it should be borne in mind that
Shakespeare based his work on Raphael Holinshed's Chronicles and that
he did not intend Macbeth to be an historical documentary, but rather
an entertaining play.
Born: circa 1001
Acceded: November 25, 1034
Died: August 14, 1040 at Bothganowan, Elgin in battle and interred at
the Isle of Iona, Scotland
Married circa 1030 to Ælflaed (Sybil) of Northumbria
Duncan and Ælflaed had the following children:
* Malcolm III Cænnmor
* Donald Bane who was King of Scotland (1093 - 1097) along with his
nephew Edmund. For the descent from Donald Bane to Robert the Bruce,
please click on Donald Bane.
* Margaret
* Mælmuir, Earl of Atholl, born circa 1035
* a daughter

Generation Twenty-one
Malcolm III Cænnmor, King of Scotland was also known as Malcolm
MacDuncan. "Cænnmor" means "big head" or "big chief". Malcolm
defeated and killed MacBeth in 1057, but Lulach, Lady MacBeth's son by
her first marriage, ruled for a few months before Malcolm killed him,
too. During Malcolm's reign the Norman Conquest of England ocurred,
and feudal society migrated northwards into Scotland.
Born: about 1031
Acceded: April 25, 1058 at Scone Abbey, Perthshire
Died: November 13, 1093 at Alnwick Castle and interred at Escorial,
Madrid, Spain
Malcolm married first about 1066 to Ingibiorg Finnsdottir, a daughter
of Jarl Finn Arnason and widow of Thorfinn, Earl of Caithness.
Malcolm and Ingibiorg had the following children:
* Duncan (II) who deposed Donald Bane briefly and was King of
Scotland May - November 1094
* Malcolm
* Donald

Malcolm married second in 1068 at Dunfermline Abbey, Fife, Scotland to
St. Margaret the Exile who was descended from the Saxon Kings of
Wessex and England including Ælfred the Great. It is through this
marriage that later kings and queens of Scotland and England can claim
descent from the Saxon Kings of Wessex.
Click on Wessex and England for the descent of St. Margaret from the
Saxon Kings of Wessex.
Click on St. Margaret for details of the life of this remarkable
queen.
Malcolm and St. Margaret had the following children:
* Edward
* Edmund (I), King of Scotland (1094 - 1097) along with with Donald
Bane (1093 - 1097)
* Ethelred, Abbot of Dunkeld
* Edgar, King of Scotland (1097 - 1107)
* Alexander (I) the Fierce, King of Scotland (1107 - 1124)
* Matilda (Edith) of Scotland who married King Henry (I) of England
* David I the Saint of Scotland, King of Scotland (1124 - 1153)
* Mary

Generation Twenty-two

David (I) the Saint of Scotland, King of Scotland, under whose reign
and the reigns of his brothers Edgar and Alexander before him, the
Anglo-Norman feudal system and culture became more established in
Scotland. The traditional system of tribal land tenure was abolished
during the reign of David. He is known as "Saint David of Scotland",
and his feast day in May 24.
Click on St. David for more about David (I).
Born about 1084
Acceded on April 23, 1124
Died on May 24, 1153, at Carlisle, Cumbria and interred at Dunfermline
Abbey, Fife, Scotland
Married in 1113 to Matilda (Maud) of Huntington, a great niece of
William the Conqueror. Please click on Mathilda of Huntington for her
descent from the Dukes of Normandy. Mathilda had a previous marriage
to Simon de Saint Liz, Earl of Huntingdon and Northampton who died in
1111.
David and Matilda had the following children:
* Malcolm who died young.
* Henry, Earl of Huntingdon (1114 - 1152) who died before his father
* Claricia
* Hodierna

Generation Twenty-three
Henry, Earl of Huntingdon and Northumberland who died before his
father, King David (I)
Born: about 1114
Died: June 12, 1152 and interrred at Kelso Abbey, Roxburghshire
Married in 1139 to Adelaide de Warren, daughter of William de Warenne,
Earl of Warren and Surrey. Click for Adelaide de Warren's descent
from the Carolingian and Capetian Kings of France, and on Warren for
that line.
Henry and Adelaide had the following children:
* Malcolm (IV) the Maiden, King of Scotland 1153 - 1165
* William I the Lion of Scotland, King of Scotland 1165 - 1214
* Margaret, Countess of Hereford
* Ada
* David, Earl of Huntingdon
* Maud
* Isabella
* Marjory who married Gilchrist, 4th Earl of Angus
* Beatrix who married Walter Stewart. Click on Walter Stewart for
this line.
* Margaret

Generation Twenty-four
David, Earl of Huntingdon, Northumberland, Lennox, Carlise, Doncaster,
Garioch and Cambridge.
Born about 1144
Died on June 17, 1219
Married on August 26, 1190 to Matilda de Keveliock of Chester
David and Matilda had the following children:
* Robert of Huntingdon who is said to have "died young". Stories,
television programmes and movies suggest that this son of the Earl of
Huntingdon became the legendary outlaw Robin Hood. Click for details
of his equally legendary girlfriend Maid Marian. This story seems to
have its origin in a rare play: "The Downfall of Robert, Earl of
Huntingdon, afterwards called Robin Hood of merrie Sherwoode; with his
love to chaste Matilda, the Lord Fitz-Walter's daughter, afterwards
his fair Maid Marian." Black letter, 1601 4to. See Richard Thomson: An
Historical Essay on the Magna Charta, London, 1829, pages 505 - 507
for further details.
* Margaret who married in 1209 to Alan, Lord of Galloway who died in
1234. They had a daughter:
* Devorgilla of Galloway (d. January 28, 1289/90 who married (1233)
John de Baliol (d. 1269); their children:
* John Baliol, King of Scotland 1292 - 1296
* Alianora de Baliol who married Sir John Comyn, "The Black Comyn",
one of the 13 claimants to the throne of Scotland in 1291 based on
this marriage and his descent from Donald Bane. Their son:
* Sir John Comyn, "The Red Comyn #2", had a claim to the throne of
Scotland through both his mother and father. He was murdered by Robert
the Bruce on February 10, 1306 at the Church of the Grey Friars,
Dumfries.
* Isobella le Scot (continued below)
* John le Scot, Earl of Chester
* Maud
* Ada
* Henry
* Henry of Stirling
* Henry of Brechin
* Ada
* David

Generation Twenty-five
Isobella le Scot
Born: 1206
Died: 1251
Married to Robert de Bruce, Lord Annandale; and they had the following
children:
* Robert de Bruce, Lord of Annandale
* Edward de Bruce, King of Ireland

Generation Twenty-six
Robert de Bruce, Lord of Annandale who was one of the 13 claimants to
the Throne in 1291
Born: circa 1220
Died: 1295
Married first on May 12, 1240 to Isabel de Clare, daughter of Magna
Charta Surety Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester.
Click on De Clare for the descent of Isabel de Clare.
Robert and Isabel had a son:
* Robert Bruce, Earl of Carrick

Robert de Bruce married second to Christina de Ireby. They had no
issue.
Generation Twenty-seven
Robert Bruce, Earl of Carrick and Lord of Annadale
Died: 1304
Married in 1271 at Turnberry Castle to Marjorie, Countess of Carrick,
daughter and heiress of Neil, 2nd Earl of Carrick and Margaret
Stewart. Click on Marjorie of Carrick for her descent.
Robert and Marjorie had the following children:
* Mary Bruce
* Robert the Bruce, King of Scotland
* Edward Bruce, King of Ireland 1316 - 1318. In 1314, Robert the
Bruce won a major victory at Bannockburn over the English who had
drawn on Ireland for soldiers and supplies. The Bruces saw in the
invasion of Ireland a chance to weaken the English, free the Irish
people, and give Edward a kingdom. In May 1315 Edward Bruce landed in
Ireland with 6000 men and a year later he was crowned "King of
Ireland". However, there was neither unity nor stability among the
Irish. Some joined the Scots, but many more simply took advantage of
the general disorder to settle old scores. Finally, in October 1318,
excommunicated by the Pope, ill-supported or deserted by his Irish
allies and with his own forces depleted, Edward Bruce was overthrown
and killed.
* Sir Thomas Bruce
* Alexander Bruce, Dean of Glasgow
* Nigel Bruce
* Isabel Bruce
* Christina Bruce
* Margaret Bruce
* Maud (or Matilda) Bruce who married Hugh, 4th Earl of Ross. Their
children:
* William, 5th Earl of Ross
* Morjorie Ross who married Malise, 8th Earl of Strathearn, Earl of
Caithness and Orkney.
* Eupheme Ross who married first to John Randolph, 3rd Earl of Moray
and secondly to her first cousin once removed King Robert (II) Stuart.
Generation Twenty-eight

Robert the Bruce, King of Scotland who was the victor of Bannockburn
in 1314, established Scottish independence from England and is revered
as one of Scotland's great national heroes.
Click on Robert the Bruce for more on Robert the Bruce and his
family.
Born on July 11, 1274 at Writtle, Chelmsford, Essex
Acceded on March 27, 1306 at Scone Abbey, Perthshire
Died on June 7, 1329 at Cardoss Castle, Firth of Clyde, Scotland
Interred at Dunfermline Abbey, Fife, Scotland


Robert the Bruce married first to Isabel of Mar, daughter of Donald,
Earl of Mar and granddaughter of Llwelyn Fawr "the Great" ap Iorwerth,
Prince of Wales.
Click on Wales for the descent of Isabel of Mar.
Robert the Bruce and Isabel of Mar had a daughter:
* Princess Marjorie Bruce
Robert the Bruce married second by licence dated September 19, 1295 to
Maud Fitz Alan, widow of Philip Burnell, Knight (died June 16, 1294)
of Holgate, Shropsire; and daughter of John Fitz Alan, of Clun and
Oswestry, Shropshire and his wife Isabel, daughter of Roger de
Mortimer, Knight. They had no issue; this being perhaps the reason why
this second marriage is not mentioned in some genealogies. This
marriage was dissolved by divorce or annulment, presumably on the
grounds of consanguinity as both Robert the Bruce and Maud Fitz Alan
were descended from William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke and Isabel de
Clare.
Robert the Bruce married third in 1302 to Elizabeth de Burgh and they
had the following children:
* Maud (or Matilda) Bruce married Thomas Isaac (or Ysac); their
daughter:
* Janet (or Joanna) Isaac married John de Ergardia, Lord of Lorn in
Argyll; their daughter:
* Isabel de Ergardia of Lorn married John Stewart of Innermeath;
their daughter:
* Christian Stewart who is reputed to have married John (or James) de
Dundas. This marriage and their daughter shown next are not mentioned
in J. Drummond: Histories of the Families of Dunbar, Hume and Dundas,
1844. However, the daughter of Christian Stewart and John (or James)
de Dundas is reputed to have been:
* (first name unknown) Dundas who married Sir Alexander Livingston of
Callendar.

For further details of the line from Maud (or Matilda) Bruce ot Sir
Alexander Livingston, see:
Frederick Lewis Weis: The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215. Baltimore,
1999, Line 42.
Douglas Richarson: Magna Carta Ancestry, Balitmore, 2005, Scotland and
Stewart.
* Margaret Bruce who married William, 5th Earl of Sutherland.
* David (II) Bruce, King of Scotland 1329 - 1371, d.s.p. (died
without issue)
* John Bruce who died in childhood.
Robert the Bruce also had a number of natural children:
* Sir Robert Bruce
* Neil Bruce
* Christina Bruce
* Margaret Bruce who married Robert Glen
* Elizabeth Bruce who married Walter Oliphant, Knight
Note:
The marriages and children of Robert the Bruce, while generally agreed
upon, seem to vary slightly from source to source.
The details presented here are from Douglas Richarson: Magna Carta
Ancestry, Balitmore, 2005
and Frederick Lewis Weis: The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215. Baltimore,
1999
Generation Twenty-nine
Princess Marjorie Bruce
Died on March 2, 1316 at Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland reputedly
after falling from her horse. Her only child, Robert, was born on
March 2, 1316 and it seems strange that Marjorie would be have been
out riding around on a horse on the same day.
Married in 1315 to Walter Stewart, 6th High Steward of Scotland, a
descendant of Magna Charta Sureties Roger and Hugh Bigod.
Click on Bigod and Stewart for the descent of Walter Stewart.
Princess Marjorie Bruce and Walter Stewart had a son:
* Robert (II) Stuart, King of Scotland

Generation Thirty

Robert (II) Stuart, King of Scotland who was in command of the second
division of the Scottish Army at Halidon Hill, and was one of the few
who escaped the carnage of that disastrous day.
Born on March 2, 1316 at Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland
Acceded on March 26, 1371 at Scone Abbey, Perthshire
Died on April 19, 1390 at Dundonald Castle, Ayrshire
Robert Stewart married about 1347 to Elizabeth Mure of Rowallan and
they had the following children:
* Robert (III) (John) Stuart, King of Scotland, 1390 - 1406 John
Stuart felt that his name was too closely associated with John Baliol,
so he adopted the title of King Robert (III). He preferred to lead a
quiet life, and although he attended several parliaments, he handed
the reigns of government over to his brother Robert Stuart of Fife.
* Walter Stuart, Earl of Fife
* Robert Stuart of Fife, Duke of Albany
* Alexander Stuart, "The Wolf of Badenoch", Earl of Buchan. Alexander
was appointed King's Lieutenant in the North in 1372 and he imposed a
reign of terror from his island stronghold of Lochindorb in the Moray
moors. The savage highlanders understood his rough justice, and he
brought a certain level of control to the region.
* Marjory Stuart who married John Dunbar, Earl of Moray.
* Elizabeth Stuart who married Thomas Hay, Great Constable of
Scotland; and not to be confused with her half sister shown next.
* Isabel Stuart who married first to James Douglas, Earl of Douglas
and second to Sir James Edmonstone
* Jean (or Joan) Stuart
Robert Stuart married second to his first cousin once removed, Eupheme
Ross, widow of John Randolph, 3rd Earl of Moray and a daughter of
Hugh, Earl of Ross and his wife Maud Bruce. Robert and Eupheme had the
following children:
* David Stuart, Earl of Strathearn and Caithness (died before March
5, 1389/90)
* Walter Stuart, Earl of Brechin
* Elizabeth Stuart (also called Katherine, Joan or Jean) who married
(dispensation February 22, 1374/75) Sir David Lindsay (1360 - 1406/7),
1st Earl of Crawford and Admiral of Scotland. Their 4X great grand
daughter was Barbara Livingston who married circa 1570 to {Rev}
Alexander Livingston, Rector of Monyabroch. Please click on
Descendants of Elizabeth Stuart for details or see summary next.
Elizabeth Stuart and Sir David Lindsay had the following children:
* Sir Alexander Lindsay (1387 - 1438), Ambassador to England; his
great X6 grandson was {Rev} David Lindsay who came to Virginia circa
1640 (see F. L. Weis, The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215, Baltimore,
1999: Line 43.
* Elizabeth Lindsay who married soon after December 20, 1400 to
Robert Erskine, 1st Baron Erskine and 13th Earl of Mar (died in 1451
or 1452). They had a daughter:
* Christian Erskine who married to Patrick Graham, 1st Baron Graham
(died 1466) and they had a daughter:
* Elizabeth Graham who married in 1480 to William Livingston of
Kilsyth.
* Egidia Stuart who married Sir William Douglas of Nithdale, a son of
Archibald "the Grim", 3rd Earl of Douglas. Their daughter:
* Egidia Douglas married Henry Sinclair, 2nd Earl of Orkney.

Generation Thirty-one
Robert Stuart of Fife, Duke of Albany, Earl of Menteith, Atholl,
Buchan and Fife was the Governor of Scotland, Prime Minister to Robert
(III), and Regent to James I.
Born about 1339
Died on September 3, 1420 at Stirling Castle
Robert Stuart married first about 1361 to Mary (Margaret) Graham,
Countess of Menteith and they had the following children:
* Murdoch Stuart, 2nd Duke of Albany
* Isabel Stuart
* Joan Stuart
* Beatrix Stuart
* Mary Stuart
* Janet Stuart
* Margaret Stuart of Albany
Robert Stuart married second after May 4, 1380 to Muriella de Keith
and they had the following children:
John Stuart, Earl of Buchan
Andrew Stuart
Robert Stuart, Earl of Ross
Elizabeth Stuart
Marjory Stuart

Note: this gen work deems Majory/Majorie Stuart dau. of Robert, Earl
of Albany and Muriella de Keith

Which is it? With this Quebec background, maybe Will Johnson can
solve the puzze?

aaron
Til Toppen
Skjult navn






InnleggSkrevet: 10 Feb 2008 04:29:02    Tittel: Re: Zouche Svar med Sitat

On Feb 9, 12:42 pm, "Patricia A. Junkin" <pajun...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:

Sitat:
The curiosity of the citation is that it seems to indicate William la
Zouche was the son of a priest.
1342. To the bishop of Exeter. The like in regard to William le Souche
of North Molton, the son of a priest. p. 66.
The generation appears to be of William and Maude Lovell, but then
could he have been of another son?
I am perplexed.

That is how I read it too, or to be more precise, I take it to mean
that at the time of his birth, his father was a priest. We have
several possibilities in and about this time, including the (later)
Archbishop.

taf
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Skjult navn
Gjest





InnleggSkrevet: 10 Feb 2008 16:07:03    Tittel: Re: Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany, 1340-1420, and dau. Svar med Sitat

Here is a new website, Canadian, to add to this confusion over
the wife of the Duke of Albany:

http://www.robertsewell.ca/index.html

http://www.robertsewell.ca/charlemagne.html

Charlemagne the Great
This page was set up by Robert Sewell in July 2006 to show the
descent of the Sewell Family from Charlemagne and his ancestors.
Robert Sewell graduated from McMaster University (Hamilton, Ontario,
Canada) in 1967 with a B.Sc. degree in chemistry. After a year of
studies at the University of Toronto's College of Education, he
taught
high school science in Collingwood, Ontario for a year and then
taught
chemistry, physics and general science in Hamilton, Ontario for
twenty-
nine years. Robert Sewell retired from teaching in June 1998.
Click to Contact Robert Sewell

* George E. Cokayne: The Complete Peerage of England,
Scotland,
Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Sutton Publishing,
August 24, 2000
* Frederick L. Weis and Walter L. Sheppard: Ancestral
Roots, 7th
Edition, Baltimore, 1999
* World Book Millenium 2000 Deluxe Edition, (c) 1999
World Book Inc., (c)
IBM Corp.
* Microsoft Encarta Encyclopædia 99, (c) 1993-1998
Microsoft
Corporation
* Norman F. Cantor (ed.) The Encyclopædia of the Middle
Ages, New
York, 1999
* Berhard Grun, The Timetables of History, New York,
1991
* Patrick J. Geary: Before France and Germany, Oxford
University
Press, 1988
* George Andrews Moriarty: The Plantagenet Ancestry of
King Edward
III and Queen Philippa, Mormon Pioneer Genealogical Society, Salt
Lake
City, Utah, 1985.
* The Book of History (18 Volumes), London, 1914
* Richard Thomson: An Historical Essay on the Magna
Charta of King
John (London, 1829)
* Edward Gibbon: The History Of The Decline And Fall Of
The Roman
Empire (1776 - 1788)
* Einhard: Vita Karoli Magni (ca. 830; The Life of
Charlemagne,
translated by A.J.Grant, 1922)
* Periodical Historical Atlas of Europe, http://www.euratlas.com
* Mediæval History Guide, http://historymedren.about.com/index.htm
* Brian Tompsett, Royal Genealogical Data,
http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/genealogy/royal/
* Catholic Online Saints and Angels, http://saints.catholic.org/index.shtml
* The Kings of France, http://www.beyond.fr/history/kings.html

Pépin the Short and Bertha of Laon had the following children:
* Charlemagne, Emperor of the West
* Carloman of the Franks, King of Franks, born about
751, died in 771
* Gisela, Abbess of Chelles, who had a son Rowland, who
had a
daughter Juliana who married her first cousin once removed,Charles
the
younger, Duke of Ingelheim who was a son of Charlemagne.
* Pippin who died young
Generation Thirteen
Charlemagne, Emperor of the West ruled jointly with his younger
brother Carloman from 768 until 771, at which time Carloman died.
Charlemagne greatly extended his empire, and was crowned emperor by
Pope Leo III on December 25, 800. Charlemagne was predeceased by two
of his sons, and was succeeded by his sole surviving son, Louis the
Pious. Click on Charlemagne for further details.
Born on April 2, 742 at either Ingolheim or Aachen (Aix-la-Chapelle)
Died on January 28, 814 at Aachen
Charlemagne married in 771 at Aachen to Hildegarde of Vinzgau, and
they had the following children:
* Pépin (I), King of Italy
* Charles the younger, Duke of Ingelheim, born 772 and
died 811
before his father. Charles married Juliana, who was his first cousin
once removed.
* Louis (I) the Pious of Aquitaine, King of France,
whose 7X great
granddaughter Mathilda of Flanders married in 1053 to William the
Conqueror. Please click on Mathilda for this descent.
Charlemagne had additional wives, an abundance of girlfriends and
many
more children.
Generation Fourteen
Pépin (I), King of Italy who was crowned King of Italy by his father
Charlemagne in 781.
Born in April 773
Died on July 8, 810, before his father Charlemagne.
Pépin married in 795 to Bertha who may have been his cousin; a
daughter of his Uncle Carloman. Pépin and Bertha had a son:
* Bernhard, King of Italy, born circa 797
Generation Fifteen
Bernhard, King of Italy who revolted in July 817 when his uncle,
Louis
(I) the Pious who had succeeded Charlemagne as Emperor, proceeded to
divide the empire among his sons, Bernhard's cousins.
Bernhard doubtless felt that his father Pépin had been crowned
King of Italy by Charlemagne and that he should follow his father as
the full fledged King of Italy. Louis the Pious, however, had a
different view of the situation. Seeing as Pépin had died before
Charlemagne, Louis the Pious felt that as Charlemagne's heir, he was
overall king or emperor; and that Bernhard was perhaps sort of a sub-
king. Bernhard's revolt didn't work, and he was forced to submit to
Louis in December 817.
Eventually, by the Treaty of Verdun in 843, the territory that
had
been Bernhard's Kingdom of Italy was awarded to Louis the Pious' son
Lothaire who became Holy Roman Emperor.
Please click to see a Map of the Carolingian Empire after the
Treaty of Verdun of 843.
Born circa 797
Died on August 17, 818 at St. Amrosius, Mailand
Berhard married in 813 to Kunigunde (also Cunegonde or Cunigunde)
and
they had a son:
* Seigneur Pépin (II), Count of Peronne
Generation Sixteen
Seigneur Pépin de Peronne
Born in 817
Died after 840
Seigneur Pépin was probably the Lord or Count of Peronne and St.
Quentin in the Vermandois; an area in Picardy in northern France.
Seigneur Pépin had the following children:
* Herbert (I), Count of Senlis
* a daughter who married Gui, Count of Senlis. Their
children
included:
* Bernard, Count of Senlis was a friend and counsellor
of Hugh Capet
"the Great" of Neustria.
* Poppa who married in 886 to Rolf, 1st Duke of
Normandy. Click on
Rolf the Ganger for this line. For further details including an
excerpt from George Andrews Moriarty: The Plantagenet Ancestry of
King
Edward III and Queen Philippa, Mormon Pioneer Genealogical Society,
Salt Lake City, Utah, 1985, page 226; please Click Here.
Generation Seventeen
Herbert (I), Count of Senlis and Vermandois
Born circa 840
Died (murdered) circa 900 - 908
Herbert (I) married Bertha, a daugher of Guerri (I), Count of Morvois
and they had the following children:
* Sprota or Adela of Senlis who married William (I)
Longsword 2nd
Duke of Normandy as his first wife. Click on William Longsword for
this line.
* Herbert (II), Count of Vermandois
* Beatrice de Vermandois, born in 880, who married
Robert (I), King
of France. Please click on Robert (I), King of France for this
descent.
Generation Eighteen
Herbert (II), Count of Vermandois
Herbert (II) married Liegarde (or Hildebrante) a daughter of Robert
(I), King of France and his first wife Aelis. (See Capet, Generation
Nine), and they had the following children:
* Alice of Vermandois, born 910, who married Arnolph
"the Great",
Count of Flanders. Please click on Alice of Vermandois for this line.
* Robert, Count of Troyes
* Albert, Count of Vermandois
* Luitgarda of Vermandois, born about 915 who married
William (I)
Longsword 2nd Duke of Normandy as his second wife. See William
Longsword.
Generation Nineteen
Robert, Count of Troyes and Meaux
Born circa 910
Died circa 967/68
Robert married Adelaide, a daughter of Giselbert, Count of Burgundy
and his wife Ermengarde.
Robert and Adelaide had the following daughters:
* Adelaide de Vermandois who was born in 950 and died
circa 975 -
978. Adelaide married Geoffrey (I) "Grisgonelle", Count of Anjou
(died
July 21, 987), son of Fulk (II) "the Good", Count of Anjou. Adelaide
and Geoffrey had the following children:
* Fulk (III) "the Black", Count of Anjou (died June 21,
1040) who
married Hildegarde; they had a daughter:
* Ermengarde, heiress of Anjou (born circa 1010/1015 and
died 21
March, 1076) who married Aubri-Geoffrey, Count of Gâtinaise.
* Ermengarde of Anjou who married in 980 to Conan "the
Crooked" Duke
of Brittany who died in 992. Ermengarde and Conan had a daughter:
* Judith of Brittany (982 - 1017) who married Richard
(II) "the
Good", Duke of Normandy.
Albert (I) "the Pious", Count of Vermandois
Born circa 915
Died in 987
Albert married Gerberga of Lorraine. Click on The Merovingians for
Gerberga's descent from Clovis and the Merovingian Kings.
Adalbert and Gerberga had a son:
* Herbert (III), Count of Vermandois
Generation Twenty
Herbert (III), Count of Vermandois
Born circa 954
Died about 1000
Herbert married Ermengard, a daughter of Reinald, Count of Bar and
they had a son:
* Odo
Generation Twenty-one
Odo, Count of Vermandois
Born circa 1000
Died May 25, 1045
Odo married Parvie, Parrie or Parrè, and they had a son:
* Herbert (IV) Count of Vermandois
Generation Twenty-two
Herbert (IV), Count of Vermandois
Herbert (IV) married Adela, daughter of Raoul (III) Count of Valois
and the Vexin, and they had a daughter:
* Adelaide of Vermandois
Generation Twenty-three
Adelaide of Vermandois
Died in 1123
Adelaide married to Hugh "the Great" de Crépi, Count of Vermandois,
son of Henry (I) Capet, King of France and brother of Philip (I),
King
of France. Click on Hugh "the Great" for details.
Adelaide and Hugh had a daughter:
* Isabel or Elizabeth de Crépi of Vermandois
After Hugh's death, Adelaide married secondly to Reinald, Count of
Clermont.
Generation Twenty-four
Isabel de Crépi of Vermandois who is also know as Elizabeth de Crépi
of Vermandois
Died before July 1147
Isabel married first to Robert de Beaumont, Count of Meulan. Robert
de Beaumont, son of Roger, Seigneur de Beaumont, was present at the
Battle of Hastings.
Isabel and Robert had the following children:
* Waleran de Beaumont (1104 - 1166, twin brother of
Robert de
Beaumont), Count of Meulan and Earl of Worcester who married circa
1141 to Agnes de Montfort,a daughter of Amauri de Montfort, Count of
Évreux. They had a son:
* Sir Robert de Beaumont (died in 1207), Count of
Meulan.
* Robert de Beaumont (1104 - 1168, twin brother of
Waleran de
Beaumont), 2nd Earl of Leicester who married Amice de Montfort, a
daughter of Ralph de Gael de Montfort, Seigneur of Montfort de Gael
in
Brittany. Their children:
* Hawise de Beaumont who married William Fitz Robert,
Earl of
Gloucester
* Sir Robert de Beaumont (born before 1135, died at
Durazzo, Greece,
1190), 3rd Earl of Leicester, married Petronilla de Grandmesnil,
their
daughter:
* Margaret de Beaumont married Saher de Quincy.
* Hugh de Beaumont, Earl of Bedford.
* Adeline who married Hugh IV, Seigneur of Montfort-sur-
Risle.
* Aubrée who married Hugh II, Seigneur of Chateauneuf-en-
Thimerais.
* Maud who married William Louvel, Seigneur of Ivri and
Brevel.
* Isabel (or Elizabeth) de Beaumont who first "had an
affair" with
King Henry I of England and later married Gilbert FitzGilbert de
Clare.
* a daughter whose name is not known.
Isabel married secondly circa 1118 to William de Warenne, 2nd Earl of
Warren & Surrey and they had the following children:
* William de Warenne, 3rd Earl of Warren & Surrey, born
in 1119;
whose daughter married Hamlin Plantagenet. Click on Hamlin
Plantagenet for this line.
* Gundred de Warren
* Adelaide (or Ada) de Warren
* Ralph de Warenne
* Rainald de Warenne
Generation Twenty-five
Adelaide de Warren who is also known as Ada de Warren.
Died in 1178
Adelaide married in 1139 to Henry, Earl of Huntingdon who was the son
of David (I) "the Saint", King of Scotland and Matilda of
Nothumberland. Henry was next in line as King of Scotland, but he
died about a year before his father. When David (I) died in 1153, he
was succeeded Henry's son, Malcolm (IV).
Adelaide de Warren and Henry of Huntingdon had the following
children:
* Malcolm (IV) "the Maiden", King of Scotland, born on
March 20,
1141/42
* William (I) "the Lion", King of Scotland, born in
1143
* Margaret of Huntingdon, Countess of Hereford
* Ada
* David, 9th Earl of Huntingdon, born about 1144
* Maud
* Isabella
* Marjory
Generation Twenty-six
David, 9th Earl of Huntingdon
Please click on Earl of Huntingdon for the continuation of this line.
Scotland
This page was set up by Robert Sewell in JUne 2006 to show the
descent of the Kings of Scotland. Robert Sewell graduated from
McMaster University (Hamilton, Ontario, Canada) in 1967 with a B.Sc.
degree in chemistry. After a year of studies at the University of
Toronto's College of Education, he taught high school science in
Collingwood, Ontario for a year and then taught chemistry, physics
and
general science in Hamilton, Ontario for twenty-nine years. Robert
Sewell retired from teaching in June 1998.
Click to Contact Robert Sewell
Please visit the Sewell Genealogy Site Map for other pages in this
series.
The material presented here has been drawn from numerous sources:
* Richard Thomson: An Historical Essay on the Magna
Charta of King
John (London, 1829)
* The Book of History (18 Volumes), London, 1914
* Berhard Grun, The Timetables of History, New York,
1991
* Frederick Lewis Weis: The Magna Charta Sureties,
1215. Baltimore,
1999
* Frederick Lewis Weis: Ancestral Roots, Baltimore,
1999
* Norman F. Cantor (ed.) The Encyclopædia of the Middle
Ages, New
York, 1999
* Sewell Vincent Sample: Letters
* Gary Boyd Roberts, The Royal Descents of 600
Immigrants, Baltimore,
2004
* Douglas Richarson: Magna Carta Ancestry, Balitmore,
2005
* Brian Tompsett, Royal Genealogical Data, University of
Hull, 2005
* The British Monarchy Web Site, The Kings and Queens of
Scotland
* Linda Bruce Caron, Scotland's Kings and Queens
A special ackowledgement is extended to
Sewell Vincent Sample
and
Carma Kathleen Wallace
who have provided much information and encouragement.
Some information came from sites which are no longer readily
accessable including:
* Encyclopædia Brittanica which is now a pay service.
In the early middle ages, Scotland consisted of four separate
kingdoms:
* Dalriada inhabitated by Scots,
* Strathclyde inhabited by Britons,
* The Kingdom of the Picts,
* Northumbria inhabited by Angles.
Scottish and Pictish families began intermarrying in the 8th
century, and their kingdoms were often ruled by the same king. The
monarchy of Scotland evolved from this union, known as the Kingdom of
Alba. By the late 9th century, the Kingdom of Alba began absorbing
the kingdoms of the Britons and Angles. Thus, through intermarriage
and conquest, the Scottish Kings of Dalriada emerged as the overall
Kings of Scotland.
The Scots of Dalriada claimed a legendary antiquity beginning
with
Gaythelos, son of a King of Greece who went to Egypt during the time
of Moses where he married the eponymous Scoti, daughter of the
Pharaoh. Gaythelos, Scoti, and their family emigrated to Spain and
eventually several groups of their descendants emigrated to Ireland;
the final group under Simon Brek, whose grandson led a colony from
Ireland to northern Britain and named it "Scotia". In the year 330
BC, these Scots elected as their king Fergus, son of Ferehard; and
they remained in Scotland until 360 AD when they were driven back to
Ireland by the Picts and Britons. In the 5th century, they returned
to Scotia under the leadership of Fergus, son of Erc. Or so the
story
goes.
History knows nothing of the Scots earlier than about 500 AD, but
at this point, the name of Fergus MorMacErc (Fergus, son of Erc)
emerges from the mists of legend as the King of Scots in Dalriada.
Thus, it is with Fergus that we will begin this genealogical record.
Kings of Dalriada
Generation One
Fergus MorMacErc
Acceded circa 490
Died (killed) 501
Generation Seven
Domongart (II) macDomnaill
Did not reign.
Died (killed) circa 673
Generation Two
Domangart (I) macFergusso
Married Feldelm Foltchain
Died circa 506
Generation Eight
Eochaidh "Crook Nose"
Ruled for about three years
Died (killed) circa 697
Generation Three
Gabhran macDomangairt
Married to Ingenach or Lleian
Died circa 559
Generation Nine
Eochaidh (III) macEchdach
Acceded circa 721
Died circa 733
Generation Four
Aedan macGabhran
Acceded circa 574, Died circa 608
Consecrated by his cousin St. Columba
Generation Ten
Aedh Find "The White"
Ruled for 30 years
Died in 778
Generation Five
Eochaidh Buidhe macAidan
Died circa 630
Generation Eleven
Eochaid "The Venemous"
Acceded in 780
Married to Unuistice, Princess of the Picts.
Generation Six
Domnall Brecc
Died at the Battle of Strathcarron circa 642
Generation Twelve
Alpin of Kintyre
Acceded in 834
Died (killed fighting the Picts) circa 837
The information in the Generations One to Twelve is taken from
Frederick Lewis Weis: Ancestral Roots, Baltimore, 1999 and from Brian
Tompsett, Royal Genealogical Data, University of Hull, 2005. Please
refer any additional sources, information, corrections and so on to
Robert Sewell.
It should be noted that in early mediæval Scotland, it was the
eldest and/or ablest male of the royal house, and not the heir of
line, that inherited the throne. This meant that any energetic male
connected with the royal line could assert a claim to the throne.
Thus, Kenneth (I) MacAlpin (838 - 858) was followed as king by his
brother Donald (I) (858 - 862). Kenneth's son Constantine (I) did
not
become king until 862. The following is a genealogical record, and
not a list of Scotland's Kings. For the actual Kings and Queens of
Scotland, see:
Scotland's Kings and Queens, a brief sketch of each monarch from 843
to 1603.
Scottish Royal Lineage, a true genealogical account (from Burke's
Peerage) from 844 to date.
Scottish Royal Dynasties, a neat chart (using Adobe Acrobat Reader)
from 842 to 1625.
The History of the Scottish Crown, from the Queen's web site.
Generation Thirteen
Kenneth (I) MacAlpin who united the Scots and the Picts with the
establishment of the Kindom of Alba, which comprised Dalriada and the
Kingdom of the Picts.
Acceded: 839
Died: 859 at Forteviot, Perthshire and interred at the Isle of Iona,
Scotland
Kenneth MacAlpin had the following children:
* Constantine I
* Aedh (Ethus) "Swift-Foot" who was King of Alba 876 -
878
* Eochaid MacAlpin who married Rùn Macarthgail, King of
Strathclyde.
Their son:
* Eocha ruled jointly with his cousin Giric as Kings of
Alba 878 -
889
* a daughter who married Aed Findliath macNéill Caille
O'Néill, King
of Ireland & Ailech
* a daughter who married Olaf, King of Dublin.
Generation Fourteen
Constantine (I) who was King of Alba and was beheaded or killed in a
battle against the Danes at Inverdorat, the Black Cove, Angus.
Acceded: 863
Died: 877 and interred at the Isle of Iona, Scotland
Constantine had a son:
* Donald (II)
Generation Fifteen
Donald (II) who was King of Alba and fought the Viking invaders
Acceded: 889
Died: 900 at Dun-fother in battle and interred at the Isle of Iona,
Scotland. To learn more about mediæval weaponry, click on Swords.
Donald had a son:
* Malcolm (I)
Generation Sixteen
Malcolm (I) who was King of Alba and was killed in battle by rebels
from Moray
Acceded: 943
Died: 954 in battle and interred at the Isle of Iona, Scotland
Malcolm had the following children:
* Dubh or Duf who was King of Alba 962 - 966, and was
killed by his
third cousin Culen who then ruled as King of Alba 966 - 971. (Culen
in turn was killed by Ryderch, King of Strathclyde, whose daughter he
had kidnapped.) Dubh's great granddaughter was Gruoch who married
Macbeth who was King of Scotland 1040 - 1057. Gruoch was
Shakespeare's "Lady Macbeth".
* Kenneth (II)
Generation Seventeen
Kenneth (II) who was King of Alba. He acknowledged Edgar as King of
England, and was in return given Lothian. However, Kenneth invaded
Northumbria in 994, was defeated, and lost Lothian. He killed his
third cousin Culen and was in turn killed by Culen's son Constantine
(III) who then ruled as King of Alba 995 - 997.
Acceded: 971
Died: 995, killed at Finela's Castle, Fettercain and interred at the
Isle of Iona, Scotland
Kenneth married a princess of Leinster and had the following
children:
* Malcolm (II)
* Dungal
Generation Eighteen
Malcolm (II) who was King of Alba. He formed an alliance with King
Owen the Bald of Strathclyde, and with Owen's help he regained
Lothian
in 1018. Malcolm didn't have any sons; and to ensure the succession
of his grandson Duncan, he killed all the sons of his cousin Kenneth
(III) who had been King of Alba 997 - 1005.
Born: about 954
Acceded: March 25, 1005
Died: November 25, 1034 at Glamis Castle, Angus and interred at the
Isle of Iona, Scotland
Malcolm married an Irishwoman from Ossory, and they had the following
daughters:
* Dovada who married Finlay, Mormær (Earl or Thane) of
Moray. They
had a son:
* Macbeth (of Shakespeare's "Macbeth")
* Bethoc or Beatrix, Heiress of Scone
* a daughter who married Sigurd the Stout, Earl of
Orkney. Their son:
* Thorfinn, Earl of Orkney who married Ingibiorg
Finnsdottir. After
Thorfinn's death circa 1056, Ingibiorg married second to Malcolm III
Cænnmor.
Generation Nineteen
Bethoc, Heiress of Scone
Bethoc married before 1008 to Crinan, Mormaær of Atholl and Abbot of
Dunkeld, and they had the following children:
* Duncan I
* Maldred, Lord of Allerdale
* two daughters
Generation Twenty
Duncan I the Gracious, King of Scotland, added Strathclyde to the
kingdom, and is thus considered to be the first king of a united
Scotland. His reign, however, was a period of disatrous wars and
internal strife; and ended in 1040 when he was defeated and killed in
battle by Macbeth, Mormær of Ross and Moray who then became king.
Despite Shakespeare's depiction to the contrary, Macbeth was an
honest monarch who was generous to the church; and as a grandson of
Malcolm (II), had as legitimate a claim to the throne as did
Duncan.
As well, Macbeth's wife Gruoch was a greatX2 granddaughter of Malcolm
(I). Duncan's wife, on the other hand, was a relative of Siward, the
Viking Earl of Northumbria; which helps explain why Siward assisted
Duncan's sons in defeating Macbeth.
Click on Macbeth for Shakespeare's version of this period of
Scotland's history. In all fairness, it should be borne in mind that
Shakespeare based his work on Raphael Holinshed's Chronicles and that
he did not intend Macbeth to be an historical documentary, but rather
an entertaining play.
Born: circa 1001
Acceded: November 25, 1034
Died: August 14, 1040 at Bothganowan, Elgin in battle and interred at
the Isle of Iona, Scotland
Married circa 1030 to Ælflaed (Sybil) of Northumbria
Duncan and Ælflaed had the following children:
* Malcolm III Cænnmor
* Donald Bane who was King of Scotland (1093 - 1097)
along with his
nephew Edmund. For the descent from Donald Bane to Robert the Bruce,
please click on Donald Bane.
* Margaret
* Mælmuir, Earl of Atholl, born circa 1035
* a daughter
Generation Twenty-one
Malcolm III Cænnmor, King of Scotland was also known as Malcolm
MacDuncan. "Cænnmor" means "big head" or "big chief". Malcolm
defeated and killed MacBeth in 1057, but Lulach, Lady MacBeth's son
by
her first marriage, ruled for a few months before Malcolm killed him,
too. During Malcolm's reign the Norman Conquest of England ocurred,
and feudal society migrated northwards into Scotland.
Born: about 1031
Acceded: April 25, 1058 at Scone Abbey, Perthshire
Died: November 13, 1093 at Alnwick Castle and interred at Escorial,
Madrid, Spain
Malcolm married first about 1066 to Ingibiorg Finnsdottir, a daughter
of Jarl Finn Arnason and widow of Thorfinn, Earl of Caithness.
Malcolm and Ingibiorg had the following children:
* Duncan (II) who deposed Donald Bane briefly and was
King of
Scotland May - November 1094
* Malcolm
* Donald
Malcolm married second in 1068 at Dunfermline Abbey, Fife, Scotland
to
St. Margaret the Exile who was descended from the Saxon Kings of
Wessex and England including Ælfred the Great. It is through this
marriage that later kings and queens of Scotland and England can
claim
descent from the Saxon Kings of Wessex.
Click on Wessex and England for the descent of St. Margaret from the
Saxon Kings of Wessex.
Click on St. Margaret for details of the life of this remarkable
queen.
Malcolm and St. Margaret had the following children:
* Edward
* Edmund (I), King of Scotland (1094 - 1097) along with
with Donald
Bane (1093 - 1097)
* Ethelred, Abbot of Dunkeld
* Edgar, King of Scotland (1097 - 1107)
* Alexander (I) the Fierce, King of Scotland (1107 -
1124)
* Matilda (Edith) of Scotland who married King Henry (I)
of England
* David I the Saint of Scotland, King of Scotland (1124
- 1153)
* Mary
Generation Twenty-two
David (I) the Saint of Scotland, King of Scotland, under whose reign
and the reigns of his brothers Edgar and Alexander before him, the
Anglo-Norman feudal system and culture became more established in
Scotland. The traditional system of tribal land tenure was abolished
during the reign of David. He is known as "Saint David of Scotland",
and his feast day in May 24.
Click on St. David for more about David (I).
Born about 1084
Acceded on April 23, 1124
Died on May 24, 1153, at Carlisle, Cumbria and interred at
Dunfermline
Abbey, Fife, Scotland
Married in 1113 to Matilda (Maud) of Huntington, a great niece of
William the Conqueror. Please click on Mathilda of Huntington for
her
descent from the Dukes of Normandy. Mathilda had a previous marriage
to Simon de Saint Liz, Earl of Huntingdon and Northampton who died in
1111.
David and Matilda had the following children:
* Malcolm who died young.
* Henry, Earl of Huntingdon (1114 - 1152) who died
before his father
* Claricia
* Hodierna
Generation Twenty-three
Henry, Earl of Huntingdon and Northumberland who died before his
father, King David (I)
Born: about 1114
Died: June 12, 1152 and interrred at Kelso Abbey, Roxburghshire
Married in 1139 to Adelaide de Warren, daughter of William de
Warenne,
Earl of Warren and Surrey. Click for Adelaide de Warren's descent
from the Carolingian and Capetian Kings of France, and on Warren for
that line.
Henry and Adelaide had the following children:
* Malcolm (IV) the Maiden, King of Scotland 1153 - 1165
* William I the Lion of Scotland, King of Scotland 1165
- 1214
* Margaret, Countess of Hereford
* Ada
* David, Earl of Huntingdon
* Maud
* Isabella
* Marjory who married Gilchrist, 4th Earl of Angus
* Beatrix who married Walter Stewart. Click on Walter
Stewart for
this line.
* Margaret
Generation Twenty-four
David, Earl of Huntingdon, Northumberland, Lennox, Carlise,
Doncaster,
Garioch and Cambridge.
Born about 1144
Died on June 17, 1219
Married on August 26, 1190 to Matilda de Keveliock of Chester
David and Matilda had the following children:
* Robert of Huntingdon who is said to have "died
young". Stories,
television programmes and movies suggest that this son of the Earl of
Huntingdon became the legendary outlaw Robin Hood. Click for details
of his equally legendary girlfriend Maid Marian. This story seems to
have its origin in a rare play: "The Downfall of Robert, Earl of
Huntingdon, afterwards called Robin Hood of merrie Sherwoode; with
his
love to chaste Matilda, the Lord Fitz-Walter's daughter, afterwards
his fair Maid Marian." Black letter, 1601 4to. See Richard Thomson:
An
Historical Essay on the Magna Charta, London, 1829, pages 505 - 507
for further details.
* Margaret who married in 1209 to Alan, Lord of Galloway
who died in
1234. They had a daughter:
* Devorgilla of Galloway (d. January 28, 1289/90 who
married (1233)
John de Baliol (d. 1269); their children:
* John Baliol, King of Scotland 1292 - 1296
* Alianora de Baliol who married Sir John Comyn, "The
Black Comyn",
one of the 13 claimants to the throne of Scotland in 1291 based on
this marriage and his descent from Donald Bane. Their son:
* Sir John Comyn, "The Red Comyn #2", had a claim to the
throne of
Scotland through both his mother and father. He was murdered by
Robert
the Bruce on February 10, 1306 at the Church of the Grey Friars,
Dumfries.
* Isobella le Scot (continued below)
* John le Scot, Earl of Chester
* Maud
* Ada
* Henry
* Henry of Stirling
* Henry of Brechin
* Ada
* David
Generation Twenty-five
Isobella le Scot
Born: 1206
Died: 1251
Married to Robert de Bruce, Lord Annandale; and they had the
following
children:
* Robert de Bruce, Lord of Annandale
* Edward de Bruce, King of Ireland
Generation Twenty-six
Robert de Bruce, Lord of Annandale who was one of the 13 claimants to
the Throne in 1291
Born: circa 1220
Died: 1295
Married first on May 12, 1240 to Isabel de Clare, daughter of Magna
Charta Surety Gilbert de Clare, Earl of Gloucester.
Click on De Clare for the descent of Isabel de Clare.
Robert and Isabel had a son:
* Robert Bruce, Earl of Carrick
Robert de Bruce married second to Christina de Ireby. They had no
issue.
Generation Twenty-seven
Robert Bruce, Earl of Carrick and Lord of Annadale
Died: 1304
Married in 1271 at Turnberry Castle to Marjorie, Countess of Carrick,
daughter and heiress of Neil, 2nd Earl of Carrick and Margaret
Stewart. Click on Marjorie of Carrick for her descent.
Robert and Marjorie had the following children:
* Mary Bruce
* Robert the Bruce, King of Scotland
* Edward Bruce, King of Ireland 1316 - 1318. In 1314,
Robert the
Bruce won a major victory at Bannockburn over the English who had
drawn on Ireland for soldiers and supplies. The Bruces saw in the
invasion of Ireland a chance to weaken the English, free the Irish
people, and give Edward a kingdom. In May 1315 Edward Bruce landed
in
Ireland with 6000 men and a year later he was crowned "King of
Ireland". However, there was neither unity nor stability among the
Irish. Some joined the Scots, but many more simply took advantage of
the general disorder to settle old scores. Finally, in October 1318,
excommunicated by the Pope, ill-supported or deserted by his Irish
allies and with his own forces depleted, Edward Bruce was overthrown
and killed.
* Sir Thomas Bruce
* Alexander Bruce, Dean of Glasgow
* Nigel Bruce
* Isabel Bruce
* Christina Bruce
* Margaret Bruce
* Maud (or Matilda) Bruce who married Hugh, 4th Earl of
Ross. Their
children:
* William, 5th Earl of Ross
* Morjorie Ross who married Malise, 8th Earl of
Strathearn, Earl of
Caithness and Orkney.
* Eupheme Ross who married first to John Randolph, 3rd
Earl of Moray
and secondly to her first cousin once removed King Robert (II)
Stuart.
Generation Twenty-eight
Robert the Bruce, King of Scotland who was the victor of Bannockburn
in 1314, established Scottish independence from England and is
revered
as one of Scotland's great national heroes.
Click on Robert the Bruce for more on Robert the Bruce and his
family.
Born on July 11, 1274 at Writtle, Chelmsford, Essex
Acceded on March 27, 1306 at Scone Abbey, Perthshire
Died on June 7, 1329 at Cardoss Castle, Firth of Clyde, Scotland
Interred at Dunfermline Abbey, Fife, Scotland
Robert the Bruce married first to Isabel of Mar, daughter of Donald,
Earl of Mar and granddaughter of Llwelyn Fawr "the Great" ap
Iorwerth,
Prince of Wales.
Click on Wales for the descent of Isabel of Mar.
Robert the Bruce and Isabel of Mar had a daughter:
* Princess Marjorie Bruce
Robert the Bruce married second by licence dated September 19, 1295
to
Maud Fitz Alan, widow of Philip Burnell, Knight (died June 16, 1294)
of Holgate, Shropsire; and daughter of John Fitz Alan, of Clun and
Oswestry, Shropshire and his wife Isabel, daughter of Roger de
Mortimer, Knight. They had no issue; this being perhaps the reason
why
this second marriage is not mentioned in some genealogies. This
marriage was dissolved by divorce or annulment, presumably on the
grounds of consanguinity as both Robert the Bruce and Maud Fitz Alan
were descended from William Marshal, Earl of Pembroke and Isabel de
Clare.
Robert the Bruce married third in 1302 to Elizabeth de Burgh and they
had the following children:
* Maud (or Matilda) Bruce married Thomas Isaac (or
Ysac); their
daughter:
* Janet (or Joanna) Isaac married John de Ergardia, Lord
of Lorn in
Argyll; their daughter:
* Isabel de Ergardia of Lorn married John Stewart of
Innermeath;
their daughter:
* Christian Stewart who is reputed to have married John
(or James) de
Dundas. This marriage and their daughter shown next are not mentioned
in J. Drummond: Histories of the Families of Dunbar, Hume and Dundas,
1844. However, the daughter of Christian Stewart and John (or James)
de Dundas is reputed to have been:
* (first name unknown) Dundas who married Sir Alexander
Livingston of
Callendar.
For further details of the line from Maud (or Matilda) Bruce ot Sir
Alexander Livingston, see:
Frederick Lewis Weis: The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215. Baltimore,
1999, Line 42.
Douglas Richarson: Magna Carta Ancestry, Balitmore, 2005, Scotland
and
Stewart.
* Margaret Bruce who married William, 5th Earl of
Sutherland.
* David (II) Bruce, King of Scotland 1329 - 1371, d.s.p.
(died
without issue)
* John Bruce who died in childhood.
Robert the Bruce also had a number of natural children:
* Sir Robert Bruce
* Neil Bruce
* Christina Bruce
* Margaret Bruce who married Robert Glen
* Elizabeth Bruce who married Walter Oliphant, Knight
Note:
The marriages and children of Robert the Bruce, while generally
agreed
upon, seem to vary slightly from source to source.
The details presented here are from Douglas Richarson: Magna Carta
Ancestry, Balitmore, 2005
and Frederick Lewis Weis: The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215.
Baltimore,
1999
Generation Twenty-nine
Princess Marjorie Bruce
Died on March 2, 1316 at Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland reputedly
after falling from her horse. Her only child, Robert, was born on
March 2, 1316 and it seems strange that Marjorie would be have been
out riding around on a horse on the same day.
Married in 1315 to Walter Stewart, 6th High Steward of Scotland, a
descendant of Magna Charta Sureties Roger and Hugh Bigod.
Click on Bigod and Stewart for the descent of Walter Stewart.
Princess Marjorie Bruce and Walter Stewart had a son:
* Robert (II) Stuart, King of Scotland
Generation Thirty
Robert (II) Stuart, King of Scotland who was in command of the second
division of the Scottish Army at Halidon Hill, and was one of the few
who escaped the carnage of that disastrous day.
Born on March 2, 1316 at Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland
Acceded on March 26, 1371 at Scone Abbey, Perthshire
Died on April 19, 1390 at Dundonald Castle, Ayrshire
Robert Stewart married about 1347 to Elizabeth Mure of Rowallan and
they had the following children:
* Robert (III) (John) Stuart, King of Scotland, 1390 -
1406 John
Stuart felt that his name was too closely associated with John
Baliol,
so he adopted the title of King Robert (III). He preferred to lead a
quiet life, and although he attended several parliaments, he handed
the reigns of government over to his brother Robert Stuart of Fife.
* Walter Stuart, Earl of Fife
* Robert Stuart of Fife, Duke of Albany
* Alexander Stuart, "The Wolf of Badenoch", Earl of
Buchan. Alexander
was appointed King's Lieutenant in the North in 1372 and he imposed a
reign of terror from his island stronghold of Lochindorb in the Moray
moors. The savage highlanders understood his rough justice, and he
brought a certain level of control to the region.
* Marjory Stuart who married John Dunbar, Earl of
Moray.
* Elizabeth Stuart who married Thomas Hay, Great
Constable of
Scotland; and not to be confused with her half sister shown next.
* Isabel Stuart who married first to James Douglas, Earl
of Douglas
and second to Sir James Edmonstone
* Jean (or Joan) Stuart
Robert Stuart married second to his first cousin once removed,
Eupheme
Ross, widow of John Randolph, 3rd Earl of Moray and a daughter of
Hugh, Earl of Ross and his wife Maud Bruce. Robert and Eupheme had
the
following children:
* David Stuart, Earl of Strathearn and Caithness (died
before March
5, 1389/90)
* Walter Stuart, Earl of Brechin
* Elizabeth Stuart (also called Katherine, Joan or Jean)
who married
(dispensation February 22, 1374/75) Sir David Lindsay (1360 -
1406/7),
1st Earl of Crawford and Admiral of Scotland. Their 4X great grand
daughter was Barbara Livingston who married circa 1570 to {Rev}
Alexander Livingston, Rector of Monyabroch. Please click on
Descendants of Elizabeth Stuart for details or see summary next.
Elizabeth Stuart and Sir David Lindsay had the following children:
* Sir Alexander Lindsay (1387 - 1438), Ambassador to
England; his
great X6 grandson was {Rev} David Lindsay who came to Virginia circa
1640 (see F. L. Weis, The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215, Baltimore,
1999: Line 43.
* Elizabeth Lindsay who married soon after December 20,
1400 to
Robert Erskine, 1st Baron Erskine and 13th Earl of Mar (died in 1451
or 1452). They had a daughter:
* Christian Erskine who married to Patrick Graham, 1st
Baron Graham
(died 1466) and they had a daughter:
* Elizabeth Graham who married in 1480 to William
Livingston of
Kilsyth.
* Egidia Stuart who married Sir William Douglas of
Nithdale, a son of
Archibald "the Grim", 3rd Earl of Douglas. Their daughter:
* Egidia Douglas married Henry Sinclair, 2nd Earl of
Orkney.
Generation Thirty-one
Robert Stuart of Fife, Duke of Albany, Earl of Menteith, Atholl,
Buchan and Fife was the Governor of Scotland, Prime Minister to
Robert
(III), and Regent to James I.
Born about 1339
Died on September 3, 1420 at Stirling Castle
Robert Stuart married first about 1361 to Mary (Margaret) Graham,
Countess of Menteith and they had the following children:
* Murdoch Stuart, 2nd Duke of Albany
* Isabel Stuart
* Joan Stuart
* Beatrix Stuart
* Mary Stuart
* Janet Stuart
* Margaret Stuart of Albany
Robert Stuart married second after May 4, 1380 to Muriella de Keith
and they had the following children:
John Stuart, Earl of Buchan
Andrew Stuart
Robert Stuart, Earl of Ross
Elizabeth Stuart
Marjory Stuart

Note: this gen work deems Majory/Majorie Stuart dau. of Robert, Earl
of Albany and Muriella de Keith

Which is it? With this Quebec background, maybe Will Johnson can
solve the puzze?

aaron
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InnleggSkrevet: 10 Feb 2008 20:14:10    Tittel: Re: Zouche Svar med Sitat

The following leads me to think that either William of York or John of
Loddiswell could have been the 'priest' in question.
Other citations from Grandison's register:
Loddiswell (Lodeswille, MS), the Chantry of,--
Vacant "a die Sabbati proxima ante Festum Beati Mathei, Apostoli et
Evangeliste" (17 Sept); and
Master John la Zouche, clerk, was inst. (at Morchard-Bishop) 24 Nov,
in the person of his Proctor Sir William de Burncestre, priest);
Patron, Sir William la Zouch, knt.
1330 Exeter Cathedral: Archdeaconry of Exeter--
William de Grandissono died on the 5th of June [Nonas Junii, see p.
1277]'
Sir William de la Zouche (ARchdeacon of Barnstaple); collated (at
Oxford) 12 July.--Letters of Induction directed to the Dan and master
H. Bloyhou.
Seems by December, William la Zouche had resigned.
1335 Exeter Cathedral;--Prebends
"Item ix die Marcii, ibidem [apud Chuddeleghe]' Dominus contulit
Domino Richardo de Kyrkeby Canonicatum et Prebendam quos nuper teniut
Magistr Willelmus la Zouche in Ecclesia Exoniensi--Set non vacavit;
ideo tenuit. [margin--"Collacio in Ecclesia Exoniensi que non
sorciebatur effectum."]
1336 Master William de la zouche (Canon of Exeter) who was collated on
the same day ( by proxy--William de Irlaunde)--"Venerabilis Pater,
videns quod Prebenda hujusmodi in Ecclesia Sancti Karentoci possit
esse utilior prefacto Magistro Willelmo de la Zouche, eo quod non
intendebat residere in Ecclesia Exoniensi et ex alio latere quod
dictus Dominus Richardus eset valde utilis in Ecclesia Exoniensi, ad
majus augumentum Cultus Divini et honorem Dei, necnon ex alis causis
ipsum as id inducentibus, etc.; presentibus in premisis Magistris
Willelmo de la Heghes, Rogero Penbroke, David Alyam, Nicholao Aunger,
Notariis Publicis; Dominis Ricardo de Gomersale, David Anselin, et. W.
Doune, Clerico."
The register of John de Grandisson, bishop of Exeter, (A.D. 1327-1369)
by James de Berkeley; F C Hingeston; F J B Winchester; John
Grandison; Catholic Church. Diocese of Exeter (England). Bishop
(1327-1369 : Grandison); Buckfast Abbey.
http://books.google.com/books?id=KX1JAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA1311&dq=ansty+zouch e&lr=#PPA1740,M1
On Feb 9, 2008, at 8:28 PM, taf@clearwire.net wrote:

Apologize in advance for my typing.
Pat
Sitat:
On Feb 9, 12:42 pm, "Patricia A. Junkin" <pajun...@bellsouth.net
wrote:

The curiosity of the citation is that it seems to indicate William la
Zouche was the son of a priest.
1342. To the bishop of Exeter. The like in regard to William le
Souche
of North Molton, the son of a priest. p. 66.
The generation appears to be of William and Maude Lovell, but then
could he have been of another son?
I am perplexed.

That is how I read it too, or to be more precise, I take it to mean
that at the time of his birth, his father was a priest. We have
several possibilities in and about this time, including the (later)
Archbishop.

taf

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InnleggSkrevet: 10 Feb 2008 20:39:03    Tittel: Re: Robert Stewart, 1st Duke of Albany, 1340-1420, and dau. Svar med Sitat

On Feb 10, 5:56 am, "AaronParmen...@gmail.com"
<AaronParmen...@gmail.com> wrote:
Sitat:

Charlemagne the Great

"Charlemagne the Great" is redundant.
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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Feb 2008 01:27:05    Tittel: Re: PALMER and PELHAM Svar med Sitat

On Feb 11, 9:51 am, "R C" <leliw...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Sitat:
"The baronetage of England, or, The history of the English baronets, and
such", 1801, p. 211, in an article headed, "Palmer of Wingham, Kent", states
that

"1. Ralph Palmer was a possessor of a great estate in the county of Sussex
in 1307, whose son,

2. John Palmer married a daughter of Sir John PELHAM, K.B., sheriff of
Sussex and Surrey."

I wonder if anyone can supply details of the daughter's name or of her
father and mother and tell me where Sir John PELHAM, K.B. fits into the
Sussex family of Pelham, now Earls of Chichester? The printed lineage of the
Earl's family skips the generations between Sir William Pelham, who married
1stly Mary daughter of Sir Richard Carew of Beddington, Surrey, and his
lineal ancestor, "Sir John Pelham, K.B., M.P., constable of Pevensey Castle"
(fl. temp. Henry IV), who may or may not be identical with the Sir John
PELHAM cited in the Palmer pedigree.

See the Visitation of Sussex, 1530, pp 20-21:

1. Sir John Pelham, Knight, of Loughton
2. Sir John Pelham, Knight; chamberlain to Queen Catherine [mother] of
Henry VI
3. John Pelham, married Alice, daughter of Sir Thomas Lewknor
4. Thomas Pelham of Sandhurst
5. Sir William Pelham of Sandhurst, Knight; married firstly Mary,
daughter of Sir Richard Carew.

Chronologically, it seems impossible that a daughter of the first or
the second Sir John Pelham listed in the Visitation could have married
a man whose father was a landowner in 1307 - these Sir Johns lived
much later, well into the next century.

The elder Sir John has an entry in the ODNB by Julian Lock. He was
the son of Thomas Pelham of Warbleton, Sussex, by Agnes Gensing, and
is the 'Sir John Pelham, KB, MP, constable of Pevensey Castle under
Henry IV' referred to in the original post. He died in 1429. His
only known issue was an illegitimate son - Sir John Pelham the
younger, who was knighted in France in 1415.

I suspect the Palmer pedigree in the 1801 Baronetage is (at best)
garbled and elliptic.

Kind regards, Michael
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InnleggSkrevet: 11 Feb 2008 01:28:02    Tittel: Re: Beheaded - poisoned - blinded Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 2/10/2008 3:15:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
A.Windemere@gmail.com writes:

On Feb 9, 6:48 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Sitat:
Yesterday, here in Canberra, was a food festival. Actually it was a bit
more, there were many, many stalls with food as well as cultural and tourist

information, available from many countries around the world. Several countries
had more than one stall and many were manned by people from embassies and so
on.
Sitat:

I enjoyed the food and while going around realised that there was possibly
quite a lot more for me to find. As a result I came home with several

historic portraits for genealogics. Four of these were of the Voivodes/Domns of
Moldavia. This made me look into what I have of that family and found a lot was
missing. As a result, I entered more, but a lot more needs entering one day.
Sitat:

Then to see whether these, for most, obscure families had descendants in
my system till the present, and what I found was quite astounding. Several

royal families, including the British, are descended as well as many other
families.
Sitat:

While entering these additional details, I was amazed to see how many of
the early generations met with violent deaths. One female member of the

family, her first name has not survived apparently, finished up in a harem.
Sitat:

I have kept the file of descendants (quite large) and if anyone is
interested, let me know.

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

It would be interesting to know more about the history and genealogy
of these families. The regions of Wallachia, Moldavia, Transylvania,
and Dobrudja were part of the old Roman province of Dacia and were
inhabited by a tribal people called the Vlachs (ancestors of present-
day Rumanians). In early medieval times , Asiatic Turanian tribes
invaded and settled in the Balkans.Around 1090 one tribe, the Cumans,
established a state (Cumania) in Wallachia and Moldavia.The Cumans
also settled in Hungary. Cumania was absorbed into the Kingdom of
Hungary and the Arpad kings of Hungary took the title 'Rex
Cumaniae' .Gradually the Cuman aristocracy adopted the culture of
their subjects. In the 1300's Wallachia broke away from Hungary and
became independent. A native dynasty, the Basarabs, became voivodes of
Wallachia. The Basarabs are theorized to have a Cuman origin though
this isn't validated, it's based on circumstantial evidence. By the
early 1400's the Basarabs had split into two competing branches, the
Danesti and the Draculesti. At some point the voivodes of Wallachia
also became voivodes of Moldavia. The title 'voivode' denoted an
independent ruler and is probably equivalent to the Balkan Slavic
title 'knez', used by the early medieval rulers of Rascia (Serbia) and
Croatia. After acknowledging Turkish sovereignty later in the 1400's
the Wallachian/Moldavian voivodes became vassals of the Turkish
sultan. Under Turkish rule the title'voivode' eventually was replaced
by 'hospodar'. By the time Rumania began achieving independence in the
mid 1800's the title 'hospodar' had become associated with Turkish
rule and was replaced with the title 'domn', denoting an independent
ruler.

The Wallachian/Moldavian voivode families intermarried with Hungarian
noble families who in turn intermarried with German nobility and
royalty. Thus some present European royal families descend from these
voivode families. The paternal grandmother of Queen Mary of Teck was a
Hungarian noblewoman so this lineage came to the British royal family.
The Phanariat Greeks of Istanbul who were frequently appointed
hospodars of Wallachia and Moldavia by the Turkish government also
intermarried with the original Wallachian/Moldavian voivode families
so their lineage was also transmitted to the Greek aristocracy.

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the body of the message
If I recall correctly, the founder of the Moldavian dynasty was one
Dragos who was made viovode in 1353, but it was Bogdan I, who founded the
dynasty which provided most of its` viovodes. He ruled from ca 1359 and was
succeeded by his son Latcu in 1375 and was succeeded apparently by two legitimate
son in turn, Peter I who ruled 1372 -1392 and Roman I 1392-1394, who had a
daughter who married Vlad II Dracul of Wallachia as well as a son who would
eventually succeed as viovode, his immediate successor Stephen I however may
well have usurped the throne, in 1399 He was succeeded by an Inga of equally
unknown origin who in 1400 was succeeded by Alexander I , a son of Roman I,
He would hold the throne until 1432, being succeeded by his son Elias I who
was pushed aside by his brother Stephen II in 1433, He regained status as a
co-ruler in 1435 and died or was again removed in 1442, then in 1444 a Peter
II became Stephen II`s co-ruler, He was removed in 1445 and in 1447 on
Stephen II`s death or removal Peter II took the throne with Roman II , a son of
Elias I , three months later Roman II ruled alone. in 1448 Peter II succeeded
him as sole ruler. by 1449 a certain Casper was viovode, thhen came Elias I`s
son Alexander II `s 1st reign 8 months in 1449, then his uncle Bogdan II
ruled for 2 years, a brother Peter III Aaron ruled for 4 months in 1451-1452 when
their nephew Alexander II took the throne again 1452-1454, then Peter III
Aaron again, 1454-1455, Alexander II a 3rd time in 1455, and Peter III Aaron
a third time 1455-1457, then came Stephen III arguably the greatest of the
viovodes, a son of Bogdan II and so the nephrw of Peter III Aaron Stephen III
ruled from 1457-1504 and shortly after his ascension formed an alliance with
Vlad III Dracula the viovode of Wallachia. Stephen II`s son and successor
Bogdan III 1504-15i7 married a daughter of Dracula, his son and successor
Stephen IV (Stefanita) ruled 1517-1527, then came Stephen III`s illegitimate son
Peter IV Rares (? poisoner) who ruled 1527-1538, He was deposed by his
brother Stephen V the Locust ruled 1538-1540, then came Alexander III Cornea , son
of Bogdan III 1540 - 1541, then Peter IV Rares 1541-1546, then his son Elias
II 1546-1551 followed by his brother Stephen VI 1551-1552, then came a John
I Joldea whose origin is unknown to me in 1552, then came another son of
Bogdan III, Alexander IV Lapusneanu 1552-1561, then came John Jacob Eraklid known
as Despot Voda 1561-1563 (origin unknown), then came Stephen VII 1563-1563,
then Alexander IV Lapusneanu 1564-1568, then his son Bogdan IV 1568-1572,
then John II, son of Stephen IV 1572-1574 , then the Ottoman sultans began
shifting the viovodes from one throne to another in earnest, appointing
various italian and greek nobles known as pharniotes to them as well.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Source Rulers of Wallachia and Moldavia
(http:www.ici.ro/romania/en/istorie/hi91.html)





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InnleggSkrevet: 12 Feb 2008 03:34:02    Tittel: Re: Zouche Svar med Sitat

On Feb 9, 12:42 pm, "Patricia A. Junkin" <pajun...@bellsouth.net>
wrote:
Sitat:
Thank you for responding.

North Molton was held by the la Zouches from the time of Alan when in
1172 he is first mentioned in England when the sheriff of Northants.
answered for the scutage due from one knight's fee on his land....also
known as Alan of North Molton, he was fined in Devon 1185.(CP7/2-931)
It descends in the primogeniture line until Alan la Zouche died in
1313 per IPM holding of the king in chief. 1313 Alan la Zousche to

I'm not sure this is actually something we know. Or whether it's an
assumption. I haven't seen anything so far, that definitely connects
Alan la Zouche d 1313 to Alan la Zouche Sheriff of Northants in 1172

Will Johnson
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InnleggSkrevet: 12 Feb 2008 05:24:43    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:MiXqj.12602$421.5465@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Sitat:

"pierre_aronax@hotmail.com" <pierre_aronax@hotmail.fr> wrote in message
news:08b0f5b5-3bc5-495a-9fdb-7c329ffc5ef2@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com. ..
On 23 jan, 10:35, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

...
We don't know when Bianca died, there are several conflicting reports
and
indications. The most plausible timing is before the wedding of her
daughter
to Ioannes Batatzes in 1244,

That marriage has been now redated to end 1240/early 1241: see Andreas
Kiesewetter, Die Heirat zwischen Konstanze-Anna von Hohenstaufen und
Kaiser Johannes III. Batatzes von Nikaia (Ende 1240 oder Anfang 1241)
und der Angriff des Johannes Batatzes auf Konstantinopel im Mai oder
Juni 1241, Römische Historische Mitteilungen 41: 1999, pp. 239-250.

Thank you, Pierre, I was not aware of this very interesting article.

Kiesewetter pointed out that the Andrea Dandolo, doge of Venice, writing
in the mid-14th century about Johannes Batatzes at the time of his attack
on Constantinople in May or June 1241, stated that the Nicaean ruler "had
married the daughter of Emperor Frederick" (Federici imperatoris filiam
sibi copulaverat).

Dandolo's chronicle drew on Venetian sources that have since been
destroyed. This report was overlooked by historians, mostly preferring to
follow Matthew Paris who referred to the marriage in the context of events
in 1244 - Kiesewetter suggested that this was only meant to indicate a
terminus ante quem for the wedding. But his argument on just these two
aspects is a bit less than convincing to me: first, Matthew Paris -
whatever he meant - was not an expert on the sequence of events in
Anatolia anyway, and secondly the pluperfect tense used by Dandolo may not
have been accurate as to the real chronology a century earlier for all we
know.

However, there is a document in the cartulary of the Lembiotissa monastery
naming Johannes along with his wife Anna, dated March AM 6750 (AD 1242)
but giving the indiction corresponding instead to March 1243. Either way -
although Kiesewetter does not state this or pursue the related question at
all - here is proof that Constance (Anna) was married by soon after the
death of Isabel of England on 1 December 1241, and probably too soon after
for Frederick to have married Bianca Lancia following the death of his
third wife, if we can assume that Johannes Batatzes would not have
accepted an illegitimate bride.

This in turn fixes Bianca's marriage in extremis as most probably taking
place between the death of Frederick's second wife in May 1228 and his
marriage to Isabel in July 1235; so (back to Kiesewetter again) it appears
that Johannes Batatzes was probably hoping for support from his
father-in-law Frederick when launching the attack on Constantinople in May
or June 1241.

Not perfectly conclusive, since Dandolo could have been approximate in his
version of the chronology, and/or in his language, and the charter could
have been written in March 1243 allowing for Bianca to have married
Frederck after 1 December 1241 and her daughter to have been sent to
Nicaea and married in the interval of 15+ months after that.

Nevertheless Kiesewetter made a strong case, correcting for me the
conclusion of Natale Ferro in the paper from the 1991 congress, cited
before, that Bianca probably died in 1244.

I have just managed to track down a copy of a short article by Stelian
Brezeanu, 'Notice sur les rapports de Frédéric II de Hohenstaufen aven Jean
III Vatatzès', in _Revue des études sud-est européennes_ 12 (1974) that was
cited by Kiesewetter, noting that it had not been paid due attention because
of the small circulation of the journal in which this appeared.

I think Brezeanu's suggestion that the marriage probably took place in
January or February 1242 is more plausible than Kiesewetter's dating to
before May or June 1240 outlined above.

Brezeanu fixed the death of Jean III's first wife Eirene as most likely
occurring in July 1240, linking this to a comet that reportedly appeared six
months beforehand and identifying this with one that was visible from 31
January 1240.

He cited the metnion of Anna by name along with her husband the emperor in
the charter dated March AM 6750 (1242), remarking that as this was so
unusual it was probably caused by the strong impression that had been made
by the wedding of the western emperor's in Nicaea only a short time before.

Not discussed by either Brezeanu or Kiesewetter, Constance herself in her
late years as a widow living in Valencia referred to the ambassadors sent to
her father Frederick by Jean Batatzes to ask for her hand in marriage, that
hardly suggests this was brought about in a rush after Eirene died. She also
made a great fuss over reclaiming the rich dowry that went with her, largely
in the form of jewels, that casts some doubt on the idea Kiesewetter
borrowed from John S Langdon, that part of the fleet used by Jean in his
attack on Constantinople in May or June 1241 was her dowry. Such direct
assistance from Frederick to the arch-enemy of Latin rule in the East, or
even the indirect moral support of a marriage during the build-up to the
campaign, would surely have been noted by chroniclers. Kiesewetter did not
explain silence on this satisfactorily.

By the way, Constance called herself by her baptismal name later in life,
not using her Byzantine name Anna in her testament. Anyone who chooses to
call people by the names they preferred for themselves should observe this.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 12 Feb 2008 05:27:40    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:%j8sj.13716$421.13288@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Sitat:

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:MiXqj.12602$421.5465@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"pierre_aronax@hotmail.com" <pierre_aronax@hotmail.fr> wrote in message
news:08b0f5b5-3bc5-495a-9fdb-7c329ffc5ef2@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com. ..
On 23 jan, 10:35, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:

...
We don't know when Bianca died, there are several conflicting reports
and
indications. The most plausible timing is before the wedding of her
daughter
to Ioannes Batatzes in 1244,

That marriage has been now redated to end 1240/early 1241: see Andreas
Kiesewetter, Die Heirat zwischen Konstanze-Anna von Hohenstaufen und
Kaiser Johannes III. Batatzes von Nikaia (Ende 1240 oder Anfang 1241)
und der Angriff des Johannes Batatzes auf Konstantinopel im Mai oder
Juni 1241, Römische Historische Mitteilungen 41: 1999, pp. 239-250.

Thank you, Pierre, I was not aware of this very interesting article.

Kiesewetter pointed out that the Andrea Dandolo, doge of Venice, writing
in the mid-14th century about Johannes Batatzes at the time of his attack
on Constantinople in May or June 1241, stated that the Nicaean ruler "had
married the daughter of Emperor Frederick" (Federici imperatoris filiam
sibi copulaverat).

Dandolo's chronicle drew on Venetian sources that have since been
destroyed. This report was overlooked by historians, mostly preferring to
follow Matthew Paris who referred to the marriage in the context of
events in 1244 - Kiesewetter suggested that this was only meant to
indicate a terminus ante quem for the wedding. But his argument on just
these two aspects is a bit less than convincing to me: first, Matthew
Paris - whatever he meant - was not an expert on the sequence of events
in Anatolia anyway, and secondly the pluperfect tense used by Dandolo may
not have been accurate as to the real chronology a century earlier for
all we know.

However, there is a document in the cartulary of the Lembiotissa
monastery naming Johannes along with his wife Anna, dated March AM 6750
(AD 1242) but giving the indiction corresponding instead to March 1243.
Either way - although Kiesewetter does not state this or pursue the
related question at all - here is proof that Constance (Anna) was married
by soon after the death of Isabel of England on 1 December 1241, and
probably too soon after for Frederick to have married Bianca Lancia
following the death of his third wife, if we can assume that Johannes
Batatzes would not have accepted an illegitimate bride.

This in turn fixes Bianca's marriage in extremis as most probably taking
place between the death of Frederick's second wife in May 1228 and his
marriage to Isabel in July 1235; so (back to Kiesewetter again) it
appears that Johannes Batatzes was probably hoping for support from his
father-in-law Frederick when launching the attack on Constantinople in
May or June 1241.

Not perfectly conclusive, since Dandolo could have been approximate in
his version of the chronology, and/or in his language, and the charter
could have been written in March 1243 allowing for Bianca to have married
Frederck after 1 December 1241 and her daughter to have been sent to
Nicaea and married in the interval of 15+ months after that.

Nevertheless Kiesewetter made a strong case, correcting for me the
conclusion of Natale Ferro in the paper from the 1991 congress, cited
before, that Bianca probably died in 1244.

I have just managed to track down a copy of a short article by Stelian
Brezeanu, 'Notice sur les rapports de Frédéric II de Hohenstaufen aven
Jean III Vatatzès', in _Revue des études sud-est européennes_ 12 (1974)
that was cited by Kiesewetter, noting that it had not been paid due
attention because of the small circulation of the journal in which this
appeared.

I think Brezeanu's suggestion that the marriage probably took place in
January or February 1242 is more plausible than Kiesewetter's dating to
before May or June 1240 outlined above.

Apologies for the typos above - the dating by Kiesewetter was to May or June
1241 (not 1240), and the article by Brezeanu is of course titled 'Notice sur
les rapports de Frédéric II de Hohenstaufen avec Jean III Vatatzès'.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 12 Feb 2008 12:34:03    Tittel: Re: Nicholas Poyntz Svar med Sitat

Ken,

I hope the following will help with some of your questions.

Sitat:
Dorset Record Office: Weld of Lulworth Castle
ROCKLEY (WILTS.)
Ref. D/WLC/T157 - date: 1342 16 Edward III.
Writ
Cites final concord of 1330 in which Hugh Poyntz of Corymalet
(Curry Mallet, Somerset) querent, and Nicholas Poyntz, parson of the
Church of the Blessed Mary of Hoo (Kent) and Hugh de Melyplassh,
parson of the church of Corymalet, deforciants, agreed concerning the
manor of Rocklegh in Wiltshire (held by John Godhyve ? for his life),
and the manor of Sutton Poyntz, (held by Roger de Chaundos and wife
Matilda as her dowry from said Nicholas). Remainder to Hugh's sons
Nicholas, Hugh, Walter, Henry, Thomas.
Writ states that Matilda and Hugh Poyntz are now dead, also their
son Nicholas, and that certain men called Richd. Neuton, Robt.
Caundyssh, Robt. Corf, clerk, Peter Dormun (?), clerk, and Wm. Ketyll
now hold the manor.
They are to appear at Westminster to state why John Neuburg senior,
kin and heir of Nicholas Poyntz, should not have the manor of Sutton
Poyntz.

Matilda (Maude de Acton) widow of Nicholas Poyntz (d. by 12 Jul 1311)

died 15 Aug 1361.
Hugh Poyntz son & heir of Nicholas died by 2 May 1337.
Nicholas Poyntz son & heir of Hugh died between:
21 Apr 1367. Nicholas Poyntz knight witnessed a Charter re. manor of
Wirdesford Belet Dorset
(CCR 41 Edward III.)
and
20 Jan 1372/3. Alianora, who was wife of Nicholas Poyntz, concerning
1/3 part of manor of East Lulworth (Dorset Record Office Reference:
D/WLC/T72)


The writ should be dated post 21 Apr 1367. The Dorset Record Office has
given the wrong date and apparently misread the writ, as Matilda is
stated to be wife of Hugh Poyntz and mother of his son Nicholas, who was
born 21 Aug 1318.


The Essex Visitation is incorrect re. Nicholas Poyntz of Hoo and the
North Ockendon line.

Nicholas Poyntz of Tockington father of Pontius Poyntz is referred to in
the following:

Sitat:
1369 Bristol Record Office: All Saints Parish, Bristol P/AS/D/NA 10
Deeds not in Abstract. Former Reference: (9Cool
Demise. Indenture.
Creation dates: [1369] [April 21]
Made at Dagelyngworth' on Sunday next before S. George, 43 Edward
3, between William Poyntz and Poncius, son of Nicholas Poyntz:
All grantor's lands, tens., rents, services and reversions in
Whitleye in the Manor of Tokynton'. For twenty years. Yearly rent a
rose at Nativity of S. John Baptist for the first ten years following
the date of the presents; 40s. sterling at Michaelmas during the next
ten years. Warranty for term.
Witnesses: Ralph Wales. John Benet'. William Crook'. Richard
Asshwell'. Henry Holdwey. John Parmont; and others.
Seal: armorial, incomplete.
Endorsed: [18th cent.] 74 - of no Use being an Expired Lease. G.J.
[R:H:] date.

1373 Feet of Fines for Essex vol. III p.168 morrow of Purification
and Trinity 47 Edward III.
Thomas Belhous, William Rook, clerk, and Margaret late the wife of
Richard de Norton, pl., by John Neuport in place of William and Margaret.
Poncius son of Nicholas Poyns of Tokynton. co. Gloucester, and
Eleanor his wife, daughter and heir of William Baudewyne, def.
1 messuage, 1 toft, 300 acres of land, 9 acres of meadow, 50 acres
of pasture, 100 acres of heath and 12s. rent in North Wokyndon and
South Wokyndon. Def. quitclaimed to pl. and the heirs of Thomas.
Consideration £300.

1376 Feet of Fines for Essex vol. III p.179 Easter 50 Edward
III.
Thomas ap Adam and Thomas Pokelchirche, pl.
Poncius son of Nicholas Poyntz and Eleanor his wife, def.
The manor of North Wokyndon and 360 acres of land, 20 acres of
meadow, 60 acres of wood and 115s. 3d. rent in South Wokyndon,
Alvethele, Doynton Setfountayenes, Barstapil Hall, Bulvan and
Brendewod. Pl. and the heirs of Thomas ap Adam to hold 16 acres of
land in South Wokyndon of the chief lords, and also the remainder of
the manor, 344 acres of land, the meadow, wood and rent, which
Margaret late the wife of John Bauchun holds for life.
Consideration £200.

A Nicholas Poyntz was involved in Tokington in 1317.

Sitat:
1317 Berkeley Castle Muniments BCM/A/2/45/1
Creation dates: [4 April 1317]
Hugh Poyntz, lord of Curry Mallet, and Nicholas Poyntz, son of Puncius
de la Launde Pennine.
Hugh has granted to Nicholas a house in the vill of Tokintone with a
curtilage and 6 marks annual rent from tenants [named] in the vill;
for life, rent 7d. a year, and for this Nicholas has granted to Hugh
and his heirs all his lands and holdings in Tokintone and Wytleigh.
Witnesses: John de Alkeleye, Roger Corbet, John de Brokeneborghe, John
Corbet, Robert de Hawe.
At: Tockington. Mon. the morrow of Easter, 10 Edw. II
[Please quote GC2162 at Berkeley Castle Muniments when requesting this
file]

All the best,

Tony Ingham


krothinva@aol.com wrote:
Sitat:
I am trying to straighten out the various Nihcolas Poyntzs running around between 1300-1400. As per the 1623 Gloucester visitation, Nicholas Poyntz (b 1278)?married Elizabeth La Zouche about 1295. They had sons Hugh (born 1296, as he made proof of age in 1317)?and Nicholas (born by1305 as he is listed as rector of St. Marys in Hoo Kent in 1330).? Hugh (1296) married Margaret Paynel by 1318. They had a son Nicholas said to be born Aug 24 1318. Now comes the problem. In Visitations of Gloucestershire and Essex, he is listed as having married Eleanor Erliegh, and having a daughter Margaret that married John Newburgh. The Gloucestershire visitation claims he died in 1359. However, in Dorset records dated 1342, is the following:

Cites final concord of 1330 in which Hugh Poyntz of Corymalet (Curry Mallet, Somerset) querent, and Nicholas Poyntz, parson of the Church of the Blessed Mary of Hoo (Kent) and Hugh de Melyplassh, parson of the church of Corymalet, deforciants, agreed concerning the manor of Rocklegh in Wiltshire (held by John Godhyve ? for his life), and the manor of Sutton Poyntz, (held by Roger de Chaundos and wife Matilda as her dowry from said Nicholas). Remainder to Hugh's sons Nicholas, Hugh, Walter, Henry, Thomas.
Writ states that Matilda and Hugh Poyntz are now dead, also their son Nicholas, and that certain men called Richd. Neuton, Robt. Caundyssh, Robt. Corf, clerk, Peter Dormun (?), clerk, and Wm. Ketyll now hold the manor.
They are to appear at Westminster to state why John Neuburg senior, kin and heir of Nicholas Poyntz, should not have the manor of Sutton Poyntz

According to the above, Nicholas the son was dead by 1342, which would still work if Margaret was born about 1340. One problem is that in 1333, Hugh and Margaret granted Hoo Manor to "Nicholas and his wife Eleanor"? If this was his son Nicholas, Nicholas would have been only about 15 at the time, and while child marriages did happen, He would not have been able to possess any property until age 21. If Hugh deeded the manor to his brother Nicholas, the rector??? Could the clergy in 1300 time frame be married and have children? The Visitation of Essex shows Hugh's brother Nicholas as having married (no wife listed) and having a son Nicholas that died in 1372(who started the North Ockedon, Essex line) Since there is a Nicholas Poyntz running around in 1346, and granting the Manor of Hoo to John de Grey of Codnor, is this the rector, or his son Nicholas? Does anyone know of a marriage for either one??

Any comments on the above will be appreciated. Why could they use different names, instead of the same 2 or 3 over and over again??

Ken
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InnleggSkrevet: 12 Feb 2008 16:49:03    Tittel: Re: Nicholas Poyntz Svar med Sitat

Tony:

I would like to get this clear. Does this mean that the Nicholas
Poyntz, ancestor of the North
Ockendon line, only adopted the Poyntz name instead of `La Launde
Pennine'?

Mike
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InnleggSkrevet: 12 Feb 2008 18:19:03    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

Dear Newsgroup ~

The following recent source, Thomas Ebendorfer, Chronica regum
Romanorum, edited by Harald Zimmermann, volume 2 (Monumenta Germaniæ
Historica, Scriptores rerum Germanicarum n.s. 18(2)) (2003): 768
states in a footnote that Emperor Friedrich II and his wife, Isabel of
England, had three children in this order of birth: Margarete,
Heinrich, and Friedrich.

The author in turn cites as his source for this information another
source which I haven't yet seen: Hansmartin Decker Hauff, "Das
staufische Haus," in Die Zeit der Staufer . Geschichte - Kunst -
Kultur, 3 (1977): 358-359.

See the following weblink for the exact citation for this source:

http://www.erlangerhistorikerseite.de/zfhm/ak/staufer.html

The above information basically agrees with the contemporary record
which states that there was a female daughter (almost certainly
Margaretha) born in February 1237, and two sons, Heinrich, allegedly
born 18 Feb. 1238, and a second unnnamed son, presumably the Friedrich
mentioned by Decker Hauff.

As we can see, there is no son named Jordan and no daughter Agnes as
claimed by the historian Green.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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InnleggSkrevet: 12 Feb 2008 21:33:03    Tittel: Re: Browne connections of the Noyeses Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 12/02/2008 15:45:36 GMT Standard Time,
starbuck95@hotmail.com writes:

Sitat:


Cotton Mather's account of James Noyes states that "[h]e was married
in England to Mrs. Sarah Brown, the eldest daughter of Mr. Joseph
Brown, of Southampton, not long before he came to New-England, which
was in the year 1634."

http://books.google.com/books?id=T7a1CMwrvRUC&pg=PA484&dq=mather+james +noyes&l
r=

A few years ago on the newsgroup I pointed out the extracted IGI
record below:

Romsey, Hampshire
--James Noyse to Sarah Browne, 21 March 1633

This marriage information has been included in the bio. of James Noyes
in the most recent _Great Migration_ volume. Romsey is fairly close
to Southampton, and early March would have been when the ships started
for New England. Moreover, the 1688 will of Moses Browne, founder of
London, gives L100 to "my sister Sarah Noyse of New England."

http://books.google.com/books?id=zsYMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA262&dq=moses+browne +noyes&l
r=

This is a nice little sum, considering that two of her sons each
received L50 as well.

The will mentions a cousin "of Andover," which indicates that
Southampton could be a likely place of origin for this family.

Two other sisters named in the will were Margaret Ventham and Dorothy
Riggs.

Records from IGI batch I013461 seems to provide several matches. This
batch does not state that it contains "extracted records," but it has
the "feel" of extracted records -- idiosyncratic spellings, etc.
Also, I note that marriages and baptisms come up together. Does
anyone have a handy explanation of the status of this particular IGI
batch?

Southampton, Hampshire
--Margrett Browne, daughter of Joseph, bapt. 4 Sept. 1625
--Dorytie Browne, daughter of Josephe, bapt. 16 May 1630
--Rich. Ventham to Mary [? sic] Browne, 6 May 1651

It is also interesting that Moses Browne's will gives money to his
cousin Rebecca Jaques, as this surname was very prevalent at Newbury
in Massachusetts Bay, where sister Sarah Noyse lived. Indeed, she had
a daughter Rebecca (m. John Knight) who is supposedly my ancestress.
Could it be that this Rebecca was actually the wife of a Jaques rather
than a Knight?

-------------------------------

<<<<


I have a Joseph Browne of Southampton that fits, but not much detail, viz:


Browne, Thomas, s. [of] Joseph, of Southampton, Hants, gent. MAGDALEN HALL,
matric. 6 April, 1647, aged 14, B.A. 5 June, 1649; M.A. from MAGDALEN COLL.,
20 June, 1653. See Burrows, 36.

Alumni Oxonienses – The Members of the University of Oxford, 1500-1714 by
Joseph Foster, CD Copy; page 197.

Regards,
Adrian
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InnleggSkrevet: 12 Feb 2008 21:35:07    Tittel: Re: Nicholas Poyntz Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 2/12/2008 4:05:27 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

Sitat:
John Berry
see
http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA268
Vis Essex 1612, "Poyntz"

Thank you. It doesn't seem to be searchable, though.


-----------------------------
Your email ends with "gr" does that mean Germany?
I've noted before on-list that some people have trouble with Google Books in
other countries, that we don't have here. That's why when I give a URL, I
try (sometimes) to also give the name of the item. So in this case Vis Essex
1612. And the subsection "Poyntz" just in case there are various editions.
And the URL itself tells you the page number 268, provided of course you're
using the same edition that Google Books shows.

Instead of searching the work, can you just go to the first page of it, and
then say "Read this book" and then go to page 268 ? Does that work?

Will Johnson



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InnleggSkrevet: 12 Feb 2008 22:44:02    Tittel: Re: Browne connections of the Noyeses Svar med Sitat

Sitat:
I have a Joseph Browne of Southampton that fits, but not much detail, viz:

Browne, Thomas, s. [of] Joseph, of Southampton, Hants, gent. MAGDALEN HALL,
matric. 6 April, 1647, aged 14, B.A. 5 June, 1649; M.A. from MAGDALEN COLL.,
20 June, 1653. See Burrows, 36.

Alumni Oxonienses - The Members of the University of Oxford, 1500-1714 by
Joseph Foster, CD Copy; page 197.

Regards,
Adrian

Thanks, Adrian. If this Thomas was aged 14 in 1647, he was born about
the same year his presumed sister Sarah married James Noyes. Yet the
births of sisters Margaret and Dorothy in 1625 and 1630 certainly
doesn't make this impossible (perhaps these much-younger children were
from a second marriage).

Does the cousin named Willoughby Browne ring any bells? I see there
was an Edward Browne who married an Anne Willoughby at London in
1630 ...

http://books.google.com/books?id=irgEAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA199&dq=%22edward+br owne%22+willoughby&lr=#PPA199,M1
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InnleggSkrevet: 12 Feb 2008 23:50:29    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

[Cross-postings removed]

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5720e668-1b18-4753-897e-57dc8635b6bf@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com. ..
Sitat:
Dear Newsgroup ~

The following recent source, Thomas Ebendorfer, Chronica regum
Romanorum, edited by Harald Zimmermann, volume 2 (Monumenta
Germaniæ Historica, Scriptores rerum Germanicarum n.s. 18(2))
(2003): 768 states in a footnote that Emperor Friedrich II and his
wife, Isabel of England, had three children in this order of birth:
Margarete, Heinrich, and Friedrich.

No it does not - this is a blantant misrepresentation by Richardson.

The text that is glossed is in a 15th century history, by Ebendorfer,
stating that after the death of his second wife Frederich married Isabel of
England and had by her a son and a daughter ("Qua vita functa alteram
Ysabellam, filiam regia Anglie, de qua filium et filiam suscepit").

The footnote to this, that Richardson has misread, reads: See Decker-Hauff,
Staufische Haus p. 359. The children were called Margaret, Henry and
Frederick ("Vgl. Decker-Hauff, Staufische Haus, S. 359. Die Kinder hiessen
Margarete, Heinrich und Friedrich").

That is all it says, no explicit correction of Ebendorfer's two children, no
assertion that there were only three in total, but just giving the names of
three instead of two while referring the reader to an article in an
exhibition catalogue that Richardson has not bothered to check as
recommended.

And this further revelation of his incompetence and poor method is thought
worthy by Richardson to be spread over four newsgroups....

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 00:19:06    Tittel: Re: nicholas poyntz lines Svar med Sitat

thanks for the link to your website. I will be checking it out tomorrow

Ken



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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 04:10:03    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

Dear Newsgroup ~

In my post this morning, I stated that Mr. Zimmerman, the editor of
the recent Ebendorfer text, put information in a footnote regarding
the names of the children of Emperor Friedrich II and his wife, Isabel
of England, daughter of King John. Mr. Zimmerman was (as I stated)
quoting Decker Hauff, not the text by Ebendorfer for this
information. According to Zimmerman, Decker Hauff has assigned three
children to Isabel of England in this order: Margarete, Heinrich, and
Friedrich. This list is similar to my own findings.

Independant of Mr. Zimmerman, I also noted that Decker Hauff's list of
children did not include a son, Jordan, and a daughter, Agnes, as
alleged by the historian Green. I believe these two children are
supurious.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

On Feb 12, 9:18 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Sitat:
Dear Newsgroup ~

The following recent source, Thomas Ebendorfer, Chronica regum
Romanorum, edited by Harald Zimmermann, volume 2 (Monumenta Germaniæ
Historica, Scriptores rerum Germanicarum n.s. 18(2)) (2003): 768
states in a footnote that Emperor Friedrich II and his wife, Isabel of
England, had three children in this order of birth: Margarete,
Heinrich, and Friedrich.

The author in turn cites as his source for this information another
source which I haven't yet seen: Hansmartin Decker Hauff, "Das
staufische Haus," in Die Zeit der Staufer . Geschichte - Kunst -
Kultur, 3 (1977): 358-359.

See the following weblink for the exact citation for this source:

http://www.erlangerhistorikerseite.de/zfhm/ak/staufer.html

The above information basically agrees with the contemporary record
which states that there was a female daughter (almost certainly
Margaretha) born in February 1237, and two sons, Heinrich, allegedly
born 18 Feb. 1238, and a second unnnamed son, presumably the Friedrich
mentioned by Decker Hauff.

As we can see, there is no son named Jordan and no daughter Agnes as
claimed by the historian Green.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 04:44:39    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

[Fatuous cross-posting removed]

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:5105595f-6d4a-4a61-8cd3-a65bbf51216b@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com ...
Sitat:
Dear Newsgroup ~

In my post this morning, I stated that Mr. Zimmerman, the editor of
the recent Ebendorfer text, put information in a footnote regarding
the names of the children of Emperor Friedrich II and his wife, Isabel
of England, daughter of King John.

Rubbish - you can't lie in our faces and expect to get away with it. You
wrote this morning:

Sitat:
The following recent source, Thomas Ebendorfer, Chronica regum
Romanorum, edited by Harald Zimmermann, volume 2 (Monumenta Germaniæ
Historica, Scriptores rerum Germanicarum n.s. 18(2)) (2003): 768
states in a footnote that Emperor Friedrich II and his wife, Isabel of
England, had three children in this order of birth: Margarete,
Heinrich, and Friedrich.

Obviously the "source" doesn't state anything at all in a footnote, the
editor did that. What he stated was, as I posted in correction of your
misrepresentation, not an attempt to discuss the number or order of birth of
Frederick's children by Isabella as you are still seeking to pretend, but
just a reference to an article by Decker-Hauff providing a basis for the
information that three children (as implicitly opposed to the two asserted
in the source) were named Margaret, Henry and Frederick. Nothing about them
being born and named in a particular order, or about the absence or
non-existence of any other siblings.

Sitat:
Mr. Zimmerman was (as I stated) quoting Decker Hauff, not the text by
Ebendorfer for this information.

This is false - nothing was quoted from Decker-Hauff, his article was merely
cited; and for that matter you plainly did assert as shown above that "the
source. Thomas Ebendorfer...states in a footnote.

Sitat:
According to Zimmerman, Decker Hauff has assigned three
children to Isabel of England in this order: Margarete, Heinrich, and
Friedrich. This list is similar to my own findings.

False - according to Zimmerman's footnote Decker-Hauff has assigned NAMES to
three children, by saying what they were respectively called. Until you
pursue the citation you have no means of verifying that Decker-Hauff
assigned only three children to the marriage, or any specific order of their
birth.

Sitat:
Independant of Mr. Zimmerman, I also noted that Decker Hauff's list of
children did not include a son, Jordan, and a daughter, Agnes, as
alleged by the historian Green. I believe these two children are
supurious.

Another lie - you told us this morning that you had not seen Decker Hauff's
article, uet now you claim to have noted something in it _independently_ of
Zimmerman's citation. Which is it?

The evidence for the name Agnes has been acknowledged from the start to be
flimsy. The direct sources for the existence of Jordan have been
acknowledged to be late, not contemporary, but you have failed to provide
any reasonable argument that it is "spurious". You have plainly not even
bothered to find out what this is, any more than you have bothered to read
Decker-Hauff before claiming to have indenpendent knowledge of what he
wrote. That claim of yours is indeed "spurious".

This is just another cheap attempt by Richardson to garner free research
assistance from others by means of posting provocative nonsense. It won't
work.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 07:34:03    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

Dear Newsgroup ~

As I noted twice today already, Zimmerman states that Decker Hauff has
assigned three children to Emperor Friedrich II and Isabel of England,
namely Margarete, Heinrich, and Friedrich, in that order. Elsewhere,
I've established that Margaretha and Heinrich were the sole surviving
children of Isabel of England, and that Margaretha was almost
certainly the female child of the Emperor born in Feb. 1237.
Likewise, Matthew Paris says there were two sons, one named Heinrich,
and another who he does not name.

Thus, Decker Hauff baiscally agrees with my research findings which
are based on original contemporary documents, all of which I have
quoted and cited in this thread in extenso, record after record after
record. Decker Hauff does not include a son, Jordan, or a daughter,
Agnes, and for good reason. I believe Jordan and Agnes are spurious
children and should be deleted.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 08:30:03    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

On Feb 13, 3:18 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:

(deletion of pointless cross-posting to infected newsgroup and others)

Sitat:
Dear Newsgroup ~

(snip)

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Boy - for a moment there on another thread, I thought Douglas was
actually being helpful on this group for a change - but I see he has
very quickly reverted to troll-mode, straight back to the deliberately
destructive cross-posting to other, infected newsgroups.

Just curious, Douglas - why are you so determined to infect this
group? Do you hate your fellow-listers that much, or is this some
strange way of making your mark?

Kind regards, Michael
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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 09:17:09    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

[Degenerate habit of cross-posting corrected]

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:26f4353e-4c97-4410-a2a0-2a186b7e0e0c@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com ...
Sitat:
Dear Newsgroup ~

As I noted twice today already, Zimmerman states that Decker Hauff has
assigned three children to Emperor Friedrich II and Isabel of England,
namely Margarete, Heinrich, and Friedrich, in that order.

This is no more true now than the last two times you tried it. Zimmerman
states that Decker-Hauff said there were children named Margaret, Henry and
Frederick, and that is all you can take from the footnote you cited. You
don't have a clue if Decker-Hauff "assigned" any unnamed children to the
marriage in additino to the three whose names were mentioned, or if not
whether he even discussed the evidence for any others in the article in
question. You told us first that you had not seen Decker-Hauff's article,
then when you were caught out in distorting what you could know about it you
claimed to have "independent" knowledge of its contents apart from
Zimmerman's citation. More lies just dig you in deeper, as usual.

Sitat:
Elsewhere, I've established that Margaretha and Heinrich were the
sole surviving children of Isabel of England,

You "established" nothing, this has been common knowledge for more than 750
years.

Sitat:
and that Margaretha was almost certainly the female child of the Emperor
born in Feb. 1237.

Um, no, this had to be repeated to you several times before you finally
twigged. And as you were also told several times, we do not know for sure
that she was born IN February 1237, but only that a letter announcing her
birth was read in that month.

Sitat:
Likewise, Matthew Paris says there were two sons, one named Heinrich, and
another who he does not name.

So whatever is not told about events in Germany and Italy by a monk writing
in England is to be taken as the appropriate authority for everything that
happened?

Sitat:
Thus, Decker Hauff baiscally agrees with my research findings which
are based on original contemporary documents, all of which I have
quoted and cited in this thread in extenso, record after record after
record. Decker Hauff does not include a son, Jordan, or a daughter,
Agnes, and for good reason. I believe Jordan and Agnes are spurious
children and should be deleted.

You have not read Decker-Hauff on the subject, and you can have no idea
whether - much less on what grounds - he might have rejected the evidence
for Jordan accepted by Green and Huillard-Breholles, amongst many others who
have researched this far more carefully and competently than you ahve done.
Also you have not even read the Italian historians who reported the birth
and death of a son named Jordan, and you have made no case that their
information on this should be regarded as "spurious". Your arbirtrary fiat
does not make for genealogical scholarship.

Can you suggest a plausible reason for anyone to invent the existence of a
son dying in infancy, and/or do you have actual evidence to counter the
circumstantial indications supporting the birth to Isabel of a son baptised
as Jordan at Ravenna in the spring of 1236?

Or for that matter can you propose a reason from contemporary evidence to
believe that the child whose birth was reported (including by Matthew Paris)
to have killed her in December 1241 was a boy named Frederick rather than a
girl named Agnes?

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 12:47:36    Tittel: Re: Nicholas Poyntz Svar med Sitat

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Sitat:

In a message dated 2/12/2008 4:05:27 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
renia@DELETEotenet.gr writes:

John Berry
see
http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA268
Vis Essex 1612, "Poyntz"

Thank you. It doesn't seem to be searchable, though.


-----------------------------
Your email ends with "gr" does that mean Germany?
I've noted before on-list that some people have trouble with Google Books in
other countries, that we don't have here. That's why when I give a URL, I
try (sometimes) to also give the name of the item. So in this case Vis Essex
1612. And the subsection "Poyntz" just in case there are various editions.
And the URL itself tells you the page number 268, provided of course you're
using the same edition that Google Books shows.

Instead of searching the work, can you just go to the first page of it, and
then say "Read this book" and then go to page 268 ? Does that work?

No. I've tried IE, Netscape 8.1 and Firefox. There is no way of
accessing the book. As I say, I've been able to access other Google
books from here in Greece, but not this one.

Any way you can give me the relevant info?

Q
Margaret (Poyntz) Newburgh is given as the "eldest daughter and co-
heiress" of NICHOLAS, which her sister Amys (Poyntz) Berry is "second
daughter and co-heiress".
UNQ

viz: Amys Poyntz, her husband, and immediate descendants?

Thanks.
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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 15:43:04    Tittel: Re: Wistan Browne of South Weald (-1581) Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 13/02/2008 01:35:19 GMT Standard Time, wjhonson@aol.com
writes:

Sitat:

Adrian I'm not sure about your connecting "brother Henry Capell" as

the spouse of Mary d of Sir Anthony Browne of Cowdrey.

I agree that Mary Browne married *some* Henry Capell, but I suggest it
was someone else.

Henry Capell, the one you mentioned, was born in 1537 and died in
1588. His first wife was Katherine Manners, dau of Thomas Manners the
Earl of Rutland by his wife Eleanor Paston.

This Henry however, also had an uncle, also Henry Capell, who died in
1558 and who also held the Manor of Hadham.

This older Henry might be a better match for Mary Browne.

Will Johnson

<<<<<

Will,

Thanks for that, you may well be correct as my information on the Capells is
not that solid. In fact I have Mary Browne as Henry Capell's 1st wife and
that she was widow of John Grey of Pirgo (younger son of Thomas Grey 2nd
Marquess of Dorset) I did not have the 1537 birth date of Henry Capell. I have a
note of the uncle Henry Capell, mentioned in his grandfather's will (William
Capell, will pr 1515/6) and that he was of Rayne Hall, but no more on him,
presumably he was his fathers heir and died sp. I must look at this further.

cheers,
Adrian
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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 16:19:03    Tittel: Re: Wistan Browne of South Weald (-1581) Svar med Sitat

There seems to be a problem with the Visitation of Essex (1612) and the
Capells (page 171/2)

We have Wiston Browne of Rookwood m1 Mary Capell sister of Henry Capell of
Raynes Hall

But then it has this Henry Capell's son, Sir Gamaliell Capell m Jayne 2nd
daughter and heir of Wiston Browne of Rookwood [Morant states this dau was by
Wistons m1, ie Mary Capell]

Adrian
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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 19:24:03    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

Dear Newsgroup ~

It's good thing I do a lot of Yoga, which allows me to stay calm,
centered, and focused.

As I've stated already, Zimmerman included information in a footnote
to his edition of Ebendorfer that Decker Hauff, a respected German
authority, had identified three children for Emperor Friedrich II and
Isabel of England, namely Margarete, Heinrich, and Friedrich, in that
order.

I noted that there is no mention of a son, Jordan, or a daughter,
Agnes, who I believe are spurious.

At soon as Decker Hauff's material is examined, then we will know
specifically what he said regarding Isabel of England's children and
what sources he used.

Have a good day.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 20:49:03    Tittel: Re: Wistan Browne of South Weald (-1581) Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 2/13/2008 5:25:52 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
ADRIANCHANNING02@aol.com writes:

Henry Capell, mentioned in his grandfather's will (William
Capell, will pr 1515/6) and that he was of Rayne Hall, but no more on him,
presumably he was his fathers heir and died sp. I must look at this
further.>>


-------------------------------
IIRC this uncle Henry was that one who only held Hadham for 1 year.
The family held both Rayne and Hadham, I'm not sure exactly where this Henry
lived mostly.
I'll check my notes later today and see if I have anything more.

Will Johnson



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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 21:14:03    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

Dear Newsgroup ~

As I've stated already, Zimmerman included information in a footnote
to his edition of Ebendorfer that Decker Hauff, a respected German
authority, had identified three children for Emperor Friedrich II and
Isabel of England, namely Margarete, Heinrich, and Friedrich, in that
order.

I noted that there is no mention of a son, Jordan, or a daughter,
Agnes, who I believe are spurious.

At soon as Decker Hauff's material is examined, then we will know
specifically what he said regarding Isabel of England's children and
what sources he used.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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InnleggSkrevet: 13 Feb 2008 22:51:50    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

Apparently the stupidity of cross-posting is hereditary - Joan's efforts
using her father's names, or the father's using the daughter's ID, have been
removed...

"Joan Richardson" <Joan.E.Richardson@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1e31a995-b77e-4728-82a0-5c4b1af1768d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com. ..
Sitat:
Dear Newsgroup ~

It's good thing I do a lot of Yoga, which allows me to stay calm,
centered, and focused.

As I've stated already, Zimmerman included information in a footnote
to his edition of Ebendorfer that Decker Hauff, a respected German
authority, had identified three children for Emperor Friedrich II and
Isabel of England, namely Margarete, Heinrich, and Friedrich, in that
order.

For the third time, the footnote only says that three children were named
Margaret, Henry and Frederick. That is not open to debate, the words have
been quoted.

Sitat:
I noted that there is no mention of a son, Jordan, or a daughter,
Agnes, who I believe are spurious.

At soon as Decker Hauff's material is examined, then we will know
specifically what he said regarding Isabel of England's children and
what sources he used.

But Douglas Richardson has already represented himself as having read
Decker-Hauff's material, in order to have drawn a conclusion from this
independently of Zimmerman.

In that case, he should begin by telling us what was Decker-Hauff's overall
aim in the article - did he state that he was providing an exhaustive study
of the family, covering the births and deaths of all children no matter how
short-lived, or was he intending to give details only for individuals who
survived infancy and/or who were notable in life?

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 00:10:11    Tittel: Re: Wistan Browne of South Weald (-1581) Svar med Sitat

On Feb 13, 6:15 am, ADRIANCHANNIN...@aol.com wrote:
Sitat:
There seems to be a problem with the Visitation of Essex (1612) and the  
Capells (page 171/2)

We have Wiston Browne of Rookwood m1 Mary Capell sister of Henry Capell of  
Raynes Hall

But then it has this Henry Capell's son, Sir Gamaliell Capell m Jayne 2nd  
daughter and heir of Wiston Browne of Rookwood [Morant states this dau was by  
Wistons m1, ie Mary Capell]

Adrian

I agree the problem being that now we have first cousins marrying.
Seems possibly ...not likely.
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 00:10:16    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

Stewart obviously needs to read Decker-Hauff's article himself.

DSH

Me ke aloha pumehana

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:GLIsj.14529$421.13366@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

Sitat:
Apparently the stupidity of cross-posting is hereditary - Joan's efforts
using her father's names, or the father's using the daughter's ID, have
been removed...

"Joan Richardson" <Joan.E.Richardson@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1e31a995-b77e-4728-82a0-5c4b1af1768d@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com. ..

Dear Newsgroup ~

It's good thing I do a lot of Yoga, which allows me to stay calm,
centered, and focused.

As I've stated already, Zimmerman included information in a footnote
to his edition of Ebendorfer that Decker Hauff, a respected German
authority, had identified three children for Emperor Friedrich II and
Isabel of England, namely Margarete, Heinrich, and Friedrich, in that
order.

For the third time, the footnote only says that three children were named
Margaret, Henry and Frederick. That is not open to debate, the words have
been quoted.

I noted that there is no mention of a son, Jordan, or a daughter,
Agnes, who I believe are spurious.

At soon as Decker Hauff's material is examined, then we will know
specifically what he said regarding Isabel of England's children and
what sources he used.

But Douglas Richardson has already represented himself as having read
Decker-Hauff's material, in order to have drawn a conclusion from this
independently of Zimmerman.

In that case, he should begin by telling us what was Decker-Hauff's
overall aim in the article - did he state that he was providing an
exhaustive study of the family, covering the births and deaths of all
children no matter how short-lived, or was he intending to give details
only for individuals who survived infancy and/or who were notable in life?

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 00:11:03    Tittel: Re: Wistan Browne of South Weald (-1581) Svar med Sitat

OK let's see.

First do you happen to have that Will of Sir William Capell PCC 13
Holder, died 6 Dec 1515. I don't have the date of the Will nor when
it was proved. I'd like to see if he specifically calls Henry his
"grandson". I don't think he would call him "of Rayne" as he couldn't
be more then 10 years old and his father was yet living.

The father of Sir Henry Capell, Knt of Rayne and Hadham (only of
Hadham from 1556 to 1557 as he died that year) was Sir Giles Capell,
Knt of Rayne by his wife "Jatbelle" Newton co-heiress of her father
Richard esq of Weeke by his wife Lettice Hampton.

Afaik, Giles and Jatbelle only had two children, Henry and his brother
and heir Edward who was later of course of Hadham and of Aspenden (by
what I don't know).

This Sir Henry Capell who died in 1557 has no surviving issue as his
brother Edward was his own heir to Hadham.

I'm not sure if Sir Giles ever lived at Hadham, he certainly didn't
from 1515 to 1522 as his mother Margaret Arundel lived there and was
holding for life after William died in 1515. She died obviously in
1522. Her own will is PCC 2 Ayloffe but I don't know what it says.

Sir Giles Capell has a will PCC 6 Wrastley. He died *at* Rayne on 29
May 1556, long after his wife Jatbelle who died "bef 23 Nov 18H8" (not
ON it). Sir Giles is named, alone, with his brother-and-sister in-law
Thomas Griffin and Joan (Newton) Griffin in a courtroll dated 1527
where Joan is specifically called "one of the daughters and heirs of
Rd Neuton decd" so apparently Giles wife Jatbelle was then already
dead, but I'm not sure.

*DO not ask me* where the heck a bizarre name like "Jatbelle" comes
from, but it's also been rendered Isabel although apparently in error.

Sir Henry Capell born 25 Oct 1505 has a proof-of-age dated 23 Nov
18H8, he was also heir of his mother seperately, although I'm not sure
what he got from her.

It's quite possible that Mary (Browne) Capell *might* be named or
mentioned either in the estate of Jatbelle, or that of Sir Giles. So
at least this long-monologue gives a few more places to look.

Will Johnson
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 00:13:04    Tittel: Re: Nicholas Poyntz rector of Cory Malet Svar med Sitat

ooooppssss...the date is July 28 1314, and dated at York



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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 00:14:05    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

On Feb 14, 4:20 am, Joan Richardson <Joan.E.Richard...@gmail.com>
wrote:

(snip of crossposting to infected newsgroup and other rubbish)

Dear Douglas/Joan

Your slip is showing.

Sitat:
It's good thing I do a lot of Yoga, which allows me to stay calm,
centered, and focused.

And to tie yourself into knots, apparently.

Your posts are here for all of us to read and re-read - tedious though
that is. It doesn't matter how many times you lie about what you have
or haven't written: we can see it for ourselves. The lies are truly
pathetic - they don't actually convince anyone, they just just lower
your reputation even further (do you do a lot of limbo-dancing too?).

Please stop lying, and stop your attempts to infect SGM; if you can
focus on mediaeval genealogy, please do so - otherwise, just stop.

Regards, Michael
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 00:45:06    Tittel: Re: Wistan Browne of South Weald (-1581) Svar med Sitat

On Feb 14, 9:09 am, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Sitat:
On Feb 13, 6:15 am, ADRIANCHANNIN...@aol.com wrote:

There seems to be a problem with the Visitation of Essex (1612) and the  
Capells (page 171/2)

We have Wiston Browne of Rookwood m1 Mary Capell sister of Henry Capell of  
Raynes Hall

But then it has this Henry Capell's son, Sir Gamaliell Capell m Jayne 2nd  
daughter and heir of Wiston Browne of Rookwood [Morant states this dau was by  
Wistons m1, ie Mary Capell]

Adrian

I agree the problem being that now we have first cousins marrying.
Seems possible ...not likely.

Once the Reformation came, first cousin marriages ceased to be a
problem. The Church of England's rules on marrying relatives (the
Table of Kindred and Affinity) did not prohibit cousin-marriages of
any kind.

The Table of Kindred and Affinity dates from 1560.

From my brief review of the chronology, it seems that the Jane Brown/
Gamaliel Capell marriage took place no earlier than the reign of
Elizabeth (it was Jane's second marriage; her first was to Edward
Wyatt of Tillingham); the IGI has a *submitted* date for the Jane
Brown/Gamaliel Capell marriage of 1584, FWIW.

MA-R
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 00:59:02    Tittel: Re: Nicholas Poyntz Svar med Sitat

Sitat:
John Berry
see
http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA268
Vis Essex 1612, "Poyntz"

The sum total of what this Vis says re the two co-heiresses is just

Sr Nicholas Poyntz Knight son and Heir +
Ellnor dau to Sr John Erlegh Knight

and their daughters
Margaret eldest daugh and coheire mar to Sir John Nuburgh, Knt
Amys 2nd dau & coh mar to John Berry, ar.

That's it. Nothing else on the daughters, their children, other
husbands, etc.

Typical of Vis that they only trace the main surname, not the daughter
lines.

Will Johnson
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 02:14:03    Tittel: Re: Sensible crossposting Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 13/02/2008 23:55:11 GMT Standard Time,
royalancestry@msn.com writes:

Sitat:

Google gives everyone the option to crosspost to another newsgroup

when they post a message to the gen.medieval newsgroup. On occasion,
I exercise that option. It's called free speech.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Sitat:



Surely by now you have seen the problems that causes?


Adrian
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 02:15:05    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

On Feb 14, 10:11 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Sitat:
Google gives everyone the option to crosspost to another newsgroup
when they post a message to the gen.medieval newsgroup.  On occasion,
I exercise that option.  It's called free speech.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Dear Douglas

Noble as that sentiment is (I wipe away a tear), it is a smokescreen -
as you well know. Alt.talk.royalty (the listers of which,
incidentally, have frequently called for you to stop posting there as
your material is of no particular interest to them) has been infected
by a sporger for some months now.

The aim of a sporger - as you well know - is to render a newsgroup
useless by bombarding it with large volumes of gibberish or offensive
material. Often this attack includes forging the addresses of regular
posters in order to heighten the chaos. In the case of
alt.talk.royalty, the group is functioning at its barest level only,
because of the disruption and chaos caused by the sporging - as you
well know.

The reason that alt.talk.royalty has been decimated in this fashion is
that someone with manifest ill-intent cross-posted between that group
and one that was already infected - i.e. exactly the same thing that
you have done, and have continued to do despite well-knowing the
likely consequences. Indeed, we have seen some small outbreaks of
sporging on this very group - on this very thread there are seven
sporged posts dated 24 January in the names of John Briggs and Spencer
Hines [although in Hines's case, it is hard to tell what is sporged
rubbish and what is original rubbish]. You, and any other lister
here, can see these infected messages for themselves - as you well
know.

The volume and timing of the sporging may depend on the time that the
sporger has available. It has been quiet for about a week on
alt.talk.royalty now, but that is not unusual. The attacks have been
going on for long enough now for anyone intelligent to realise they
are likely to flare up again at any time. Alt.talk.royalty remains an
infected group - as you well know.

So, you say you are deliberately cross-posting to an infected
newsgroup, in full knowledge that this will likely infect and decimate
this group, because of your "right to free speech". In other words,
you believe your right to lie, bluster and pontificate (because that's
what most of your posts have become) is more important than the rights
of all of the rest of us together to enjoy participating in an
intelligent and worthwhile discussion group about mediaeval
genealogy. You would sooner destroy it than stop. Such a massive
ego, coupled with a total disregard for others, may explain your
actions, but it doesn't excuse them.

You have, indeed, like Hines, become a troll. You're actually astute
enough to see that. And it's a shame, because you were once a very
useful contributor, but that's your choice - as you well know.

Regards, Michael
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 02:16:04    Tittel: Re: Sensible crossposting Svar med Sitat

On Feb 14, 10:51 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Sitat:
Google gives everyone the option to crosspost to another newsgroup
when they post a message to the gen.medieval newsgroup.  On occasion,
I exercise that option.  It's called free speech.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

(since Douglas has repeated his post, I have repeated my response)

Dear Douglas

Noble as that sentiment is (I wipe away a tear), it is a smokescreen -
as you well know. Alt.talk.royalty (the listers of which,
incidentally, have frequently called for you to stop posting there as
your material is of no particular interest to them) has been infected
by a sporger for some months now.

The aim of a sporger - as you well know - is to render a newsgroup
useless by bombarding it with large volumes of gibberish or offensive
material. Often this attack includes forging the addresses of regular
posters in order to heighten the chaos. In the case of
alt.talk.royalty, the group is functioning at its barest level only,
because of the disruption and chaos caused by the sporging - as you
well know.

The reason that alt.talk.royalty has been decimated in this fashion is
that someone with manifest ill-intent cross-posted between that group
and one that was already infected - i.e. exactly the same thing that
you have done, and have continued to do despite well-knowing the
likely consequences. Indeed, we have seen some outbreaks of sporging
on this very group - on this very thread there are seven sporged posts
dated 24 January in the names of John Briggs and Spencer Hines
[although in Hines's case, it is hard to tell what is sporged rubbish
and what is original rubbish]. You, and any other lister here, can
see these infected messages for themselves - as you well know.


The volume and timing of the sporging may depend on the time that the
sporger has available. It has been quiet for about a week on
alt.talk.royalty now, but that is not unusual. The attacks have been
going on for long enough now for anyone intelligent to realise they
are likely to flare up again at any time. Alt.talk.royalty remains an
infected group - as you well know.

So, you say you are deliberately cross-posting to an infected
newsgroup, in full knowledge that this will likely infect and decimate
this group, because of your "right to free speech". In other words,
you believe your right to lie, bluster and pontificate (because that's
what most of your posts have become) is more important than the rights
of all of the rest of us together to enjoy participating in an
intelligent and worthwhile discussion group about mediaeval
genealogy. You would sooner destroy it than stop. Such a massive
ego, coupled with a total disregard for others, may explain your
actions, but it doesn't excuse them.

You have, indeed, like Hines, become a troll. You're actually astute
enough to see that. And it's a shame, because you were once a very
useful contributor, but that's your choice - as you well know.

Regards, Michael
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 02:17:58    Tittel: Re: Wistan Browne of South Weald (-1581) Svar med Sitat

On Feb 13, 2:42 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

Sitat:
From my brief review of the chronology, it seems that the Jane Brown/
Gamaliel Capell marriage took place no earlier than the reign of
Elizabeth (it was Jane's second marriage; her first was to Edward
Wyatt of Tillingham); the IGI has a *submitted* date for the Jane
Brown/Gamaliel Capell marriage of 1584, FWIW.



A qualified *maybe*. Gamaliel Capell was "fourth son" and "aged 4 in
1570" (Vis Essex) so I would rather suspect "1584" as being a "not
married before" type date. We've seen how people being people,
frequently remove "bef", "aft", "circa" etc which then launches a
whole series of re-corrections.

While Jane Browne was "second daughter and co-heiress" and also "minor
at the time of her father's will dated 1581". So all of that
certainly gives us a quite narrow window as Mary Capell, her eldest
daughter was already having a child in 1621 by William Luckyn, 1st
Bart of Little Waltham.

I have Jane's birthrange currently as 1563/81 and would welcome
anything helping to narrow it more. Especially work on her mother
Mary Capell whose birthrange I currently have only as 1528/55 which is
tantamount to saying "I have no idea!"

Will Johnson
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 02:18:04    Tittel: Re: Wistan Browne of South Weald (-1581) Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 13/02/2008 23:20:33 GMT Standard Time, wjhonson@aol.com
writes:

Sitat:


I have Jane's birthrange currently as 1563/81 and would welcome
anything helping to narrow it more. Especially work on her mother
Mary Capell whose birthrange I currently have only as 1528/55 which is
tantamount to saying "I have no idea!"

Will Johnson

Sitat:


Will,

Morant' Essex has:

He [Wistan] married first Mary daughter of Sir Edward Capel by whom he had
Antony .... and two daughters
Catharine, wife of Sir Nicholas Waldegrave; and
Jane, married first to Edward Wyatt Esq.; of Gellingham, and afterwards to
Gamalied, fourth son of Henry Capel* Esq., the first then aged 18 and the
second 16 years (Inquis 25 Eliz. Oct. 3 nu 181 [1583])
(044, page 118, Vol. I)

Adrian
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 02:19:04    Tittel: Re: Sensible crossposting Svar med Sitat

Here here. We've seen several invasions of this newsgroup come on the
heels of cross-posting nare-do-wells (sp?) who evidently could care
less, about the havoc that such actions precede.

Will Johnson
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 02:20:05    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

On Feb 13, 4:38 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

< You have, indeed, like Hines, become a troll.  You're actually
astute
< enough to see that.  And it's a shame, because you were once a very
< useful contributor, but that's your choice - as you well know.
<
< Regards, Michael

We can certainly do without the name calling and baiting, Michael.
It only makes you look like a troll.

You're right about one thing, though. Crossposting is a choice for
all of us. And, occasionally some of us exercise that option. That's
what free speech is all about, both here on the internet and
elsewhere.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 02:46:02    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

On Feb 14, 11:01 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:

Sitat:
Crossposting is a choice for
all of us.  And, occasionally some of us exercise that option.  That's
what free speech is all about, both here on the internet and
elsewhere.

"O Liberty - what crimes are committed in thy name!"

'Free speech', like most rights, carries with it concommitant
responsibilities.

I like this group. There are many good and intelligent posters here,
and much useful and interesting material is shared. I learn alot from
it. I think it's a great shame that you are prepared to destroy it,
and want to pretend that doing so is all about your "rights".

Of course, none of us can actually stop you from infecting or
destroying this group, but we can call you on your behaviour, and we
can all see you for what you are. As, incidentally, can your
professional peers and prospective clients, because you are determined
to broadcast that behaviour to the world (I can't fathom why).

I take no pleasure in calling you on this. I would much prefer it if
you contributed useful material, and stopped presenting
misrepresentations, falsehoods and faulty research - and stopped your
campaign to infect and destroy the group.

Identifying you as a troll based on the clear hallmarks of your
destructive and selfish behaviour is not name-calling; it's just fact.

Regards, Michael
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 02:49:41    Tittel: Re: Nicholas Poyntz Svar med Sitat

wjhonson wrote:
Sitat:
John Berry
see
http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA268
Vis Essex 1612, "Poyntz"

The sum total of what this Vis says re the two co-heiresses is just

Sr Nicholas Poyntz Knight son and Heir +
Ellnor dau to Sr John Erlegh Knight

and their daughters
Margaret eldest daugh and coheire mar to Sir John Nuburgh, Knt
Amys 2nd dau & coh mar to John Berry, ar.

That's it. Nothing else on the daughters, their children, other
husbands, etc.

Typical of Vis that they only trace the main surname, not the daughter
lines.

Will Johnson

Thanks. Someone else sent me the page and Amys married John Barry, not
Berry. Whether Bury/Berry/Barry were interchangeable at that time, I
don't know. This surname, Bury (supposed to descend from Pons), is
actually pronounced to rhyme with jury, suggesting it has French
origins. I've occasionally seen Berry as a spelling, but never Barry.
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 02:54:03    Tittel: Re: Wistan Browne of South Weald (-1581) Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 13/02/2008 21:45:28 GMT Standard Time, wjhonson@aol.com
writes:

Sitat:

OK let's see.


First do you happen to have that Will of Sir William Capell PCC 13
Holder, died 6 Dec 1515. I don't have the date of the Will nor when
it was proved. I'd like to see if he specifically calls Henry his
"grandson". I don't think he would call him "of Rayne" as he couldn't
be more then 10 years old and his father was yet living.
Sitat:


Will,

This Will, or rather extracts, is in Test Vet pp 533-4 (Vol II)

Sir WILLIAM CAPEL, KNT.
William Capel, Knight, Alderman of London {fn Ancestor of the Earls of
Essex. This eminent merchant is celebrated for his resistance of the extortions
of Empson and Dudley, in consequence of which he was imprisoned in the Tower,
where he continued until the accession of Henry VIII. He was knighted 17th
December 1485, and represented the City of London in Parliament in the 7th
Henry VII. and again in 1512 and 1514, and died September 6th, 1515}; my wife
Margaret {fn Daughter of Sir Thomas Arundel, of Lanhearn, co. Cornwall,
Knight}; my son Sir Giles Capel and his sons Henry and Edward Capel; my daughters
.... {fn Dorothy, wife of John Lord Zouche, of Haryngworth.}, wife of Sir John
Zouche, and Elizabeth, wife of William Paulet {fn First Marquess of
Winchester}; my manors of Hadham and Walkern, in the county of Herts, Bacons in Essex,
Beames in Wiltshire, Kingsworth and Claversham in Hampshire, Norton in Kent,
South Wotton, Goderston, and Massingham, in Norfolk, and Stoneham Aspall in
Suffolk. Proved 17th March 1515 {fn 1515-16}

p 594-5
Margaret Lady Capell.
Dame Margaret Capell, widow of Sir William Capell. To my son Sir Giles
Capell King Edward the Fifth's chain, with remainder to Henry and Edward Capell
respectively, remainder to my daughter Elizabeth Paulet and her heirs.
Proved 18th April 1522


Adrian
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 02:56:49    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

Useless & Malicious Eyewash Deleted.

'Nuff Said.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<mjcar@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:64828842-a180-4cce-a68d-c4e76c95169a@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com ...

<twaddlesnipped>
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 03:13:57    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:cWJsj.456$9l1.3659@eagle.america.net...
Sitat:
Stewart obviously needs to read Decker-Hauff's article himself.

Um, I have read it for myself - and of course I am not the one making
unjustified claims based on it unseen, at second-hand.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 03:23:45    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:56443126-24af-4c56-bd2a-5ca053719533@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com ...
Sitat:
On Feb 13, 3:10 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Stewart obviously needs to read Decker-Hauff's article himself.

DSH

I'll be glad to send PMS a copy when I obtain one myself.

So now you admit that you have not actually read it yet - how, pray, did you
note anything in it independently? And if you are relying only on the
footnote in Zimmerman's edition of Ebendorfer, why did you misrepresent what
this said?

Do you even know the scope of Decker-Hauff's article? For instance, whether
this gives sources for informaiton, and/or discussion of dubious points?

When you finally succeed in obtaining a copy, and if you manage to read this
for yourself instead of trying to cadge hints from me, you will note that
Decker-Hauff actually "assigns" four (count them, 4 not 3) children to
Frederick II by Isabel of England, and that he contradicts your conclusion
about the birthdate of Margaret.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 03:36:55    Tittel: Re: translation from French? Svar med Sitat

Anyhow, it seems to be very flowery Latin. An online Latin translator only
picked and chose a few words.

Omnibus presenfcem cartam inspections Nicholaus Poinz , advantageous. Nine
the whole your and I Nicholaus Poinz mamicepi towards lady my H. you will be
ruled Angles enlightener , for Hngone , godson meo , and the same Hugo eidem
master meo to be ruled and (.sic) fidelity serviet a day Limina nearest
after primam Demesne quadragesime , yearly produce to reign very you rule
first empty , and never a fidelity her retreat. And if you wish by chance
contigeret and a fidelity her retreat , either fidelity she not serviret ,
to concede and tota earth my towards master my you will be ruled incurratur.
As mentioned above but I Nicholaus Poinz , free master meo to be ruled
Ceciliam daughter Beatricis , daughter mee , upon to sit near efc guarantee
of safety faithful servicii very Hugonis Poinz , daughter my. And upon hujus
rei proof , and to elders guarantee of safety , in this writer seal my
placed near , and to guarantee of safety faithful servicii in words Hugonis
Poinz W. about Lacy J. about I had advised uta H. about Dead Husband AY.
about Clifford R. about Clifford sc rule plegii constituerunt. Hiis testibus
, master W. Eboracensi archiepiscopo , master H. Dublineusi archiepiscopo P.
Wintoniensi episcopal , master W. Mareseallo , courteously Penbrochie R.
about Husband cancellario demesne you rule , master T. dc Erdintton
----- Original Message -----
From: <KRothinVA@aol.com>
To: <unclefvp@verizon.net>
Cc: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: translation from French?


Sitat:
Here is the entire entry...no date except for year is shown. It looks as
if
this may be the Nicholas that lived 1170?-1222. Good luck with
translation

Omnibus presenfcem cartam inspections, Nicholaus Poinz, salutem.
Noverit universitas vestra quod ego, Nicholaus Poinz, mamicepi erga
domintun meum, H. regem Anglie illustrem, pro Hngone, filio meo,
quod idem Hugo eidem domino meo regi quod (.sic) fideliter serviet, a
die Lime proxima post primam Dominicam quadragesime, anno regni
ipsius regis primo inantea, et nunquam a fidelitate sua recedet. Et
si forte contigeret quod a fidelitate sua recederet, aut fideliter ei non
serviret, concedo quod tota terra mea erga dominum meum regem
incurratur. Insuper autem ego, Nicholaus Poinz, liberavi domino meo
regi Ceciliam filiam Beatricis, filie mee, in obsidem efc securitatem
fidelis servicii ipsius Hugonis Poinz, filii mei. Et in hujus rei
testimonium,
et ad majorem securitatem, huic scripto sigillum meum apposui,
et ad securitatem fidelis servicii dicti Hugonis Poinz, W. de Lacy, J. de
Monum[uta], H. de Mortuo Mari, AY. de Clifford, R. de Clifford, sc
principales plegii constituerunt. Hiis testibus, domino W. Eboracensi
archiepiscopo, domino H. Dublineusi archiepiscopo, P. "Wintoniensi
episcopo,
domino W. Mareseallo, comite Penbrochie, R. de Marisco, cancellario
domini regis, domino T. dc Erdintton



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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 03:38:04    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

Stewart SAYS he has READ this Decker-Hauff article.

SO he SHOULD be able to precisely and discretely quote the part he SAYS
disproves what DR has written.

But he chooses NOT to DO that quite simple thing.

Curiouser & Curiouser.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 03:44:03    Tittel: Re: translation from French? Svar med Sitat

The problem is that online Latin translators are very very very
awful. In general.

Will Johnson
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 03:49:03    Tittel: Re: translation from French? Svar med Sitat

Sitat:
Omnibus presenfcem cartam inspections, Nicholaus  Poinz, salutem.
Noverit universitas vestra quod ego, Nicholaus Poinz,  mamicepi erga
domintun meum, H. regem Anglie illustrem, pro Hngone, filio  meo,
quod idem Hugo eidem domino meo regi quod (.sic) fideliter serviet,  a
die Lime proxima post primam Dominicam quadragesime, anno regni
ipsius  regis primo inantea, et nunquam a fidelitate sua recedet. Et
si forte  contigeret quod a fidelitate sua recederet, aut fideliter ei non
serviret,  concedo quod tota terra mea erga dominum meum regem


I mean take this part for example "H. regem Anglie..."
It's fairly clear this should mean something close to "Henry the King
of England"

This part "Omnibus presenfcem cartam inspections, Nicholaus Poinz,
salutem."
I'm surprised that this Latin translator can't figure out what Omnibus
means.
I'd say this phrase means something close to
"To all those present, this letter of inspections, I Nicholas Poyntz,
salute you"

I know almost nothing about Latin. Tried to learn it once and failed
miserably. As you can tell from my bad attempt.

Will
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 03:50:03    Tittel: Re: Nicholas Poyntz Svar med Sitat

A descendant for Amicia, or Avicia and John Barry is William Barry,
found in Baronia Anglica Concentrata:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NvQ7AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA374


CE Wood

On Feb 13, 4:49 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
Sitat:
wjhonson wrote:
John Berry
see
http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA268
Vis Essex 1612, "Poyntz"

The sum total of what this Vis says re the two co-heiresses is just

Sr Nicholas Poyntz Knight son and Heir +
Ellnor dau to Sr John Erlegh Knight

and their daughters
Margaret eldest daugh and coheire mar to Sir John Nuburgh, Knt
Amys 2nd dau & coh mar to John Berry, ar.

That's it. Nothing else on the daughters, their children, other
husbands, etc.

Typical of Vis that they only trace the main surname, not the daughter
lines.

Will Johnson

Thanks. Someone else sent me the page and Amys married John Barry, not
Berry. Whether Bury/Berry/Barry were interchangeable at that time, I
don't know. This surname, Bury (supposed to descend from Pons), is
actually pronounced to rhyme with jury, suggesting it has French
origins. I've occasionally seen Berry as a spelling, but never Barry.
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 03:54:04    Tittel: Re: translation from French? Svar med Sitat

probably so...That reminds me of the Monty Python skit about a guy
scribbling "Romans Go Home", and a centurion kept scolding him about getting
the translation wrong.

The wording in Latin is fairly consistent, but it does have a lot of tenses
that can change the meaning a bit.

----- Original Message -----
From: "wjhonson" <wjhonson@aol.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
To: <gen-medieval@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: translation from French?


Sitat:
The problem is that online Latin translators are very very very
awful. In general.

Will Johnson


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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 03:54:15    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

Van de Pas and Stewart quite obviously do not understand the American
concept of Free Speech.

They have a very pinch-minded and parochial view of what Free Speech, under
the Rule of Law, is all about.

One is Dutch and the other Australian, so that's understandable.

Further, SIMULPOSTING is often the best way to get the word out to a larger
audience and encourage a free and lively debate.

Richardson and I do not fear that, whereas Van de Pas and Stewart DO.

They want a cosseted, closeted, circumscribed, cozy audience -- fearing
exposure of some of their gross errors and idiocies to a larger audience --
and the consequent criticism engendered.

Understood...

But Not Neither Condoned Nor Endorsed.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 03:59:02    Tittel: Re: Wistan Browne of South Weald (-1581) Svar med Sitat

On Feb 13, 4:49 pm, ADRIANCHANNIN...@aol.com wrote:
Sitat:
p 594-5
Margaret Lady Capell.
Dame Margaret Capell, widow of Sir William Capell.  To my son Sir  Giles
Capell King Edward the Fifth's chain, with remainder to Henry and Edward  Capell
respectively, remainder to my daughter Elizabeth Paulet and her  heirs.  
Proved 18th April 1522

Adrian

Dorothy (Capell) Zouche may already be dead. She died sometime
between Jan 1515 and Oct 1527, but surely she is the mother of the six
(at least) Zouche children of John, 8th Baron Zouche of Harryngworth
(born from about 1510 to about 1520 more or less).

Sir William Capell is possibly much older than Margaret Arundell. I
wonder if possibly, although Dorothy is his daughter, that Dorothy is
not *her* daughter?
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 04:04:50    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:NYMsj.461$9l1.3710@eagle.america.net...
Sitat:
Stewart SAYS he has READ this Decker-Hauff article.

SO he SHOULD be able to precisely and discretely quote the part he SAYS
disproves what DR has written.

But he chooses NOT to DO that quite simple thing.

Curiouser & Curiouser.

There's nothing remotely curious about it: I have said plainly that I will
not be inveigled into doing Richardson's work or providing free research
assistance for him. I didn't bring up this subject and have no obligations
to anyone over it.

I have already quoted from Zimmerman's footnote - that is all Richardson is
going by in the first place - a contradiciton of "what DR has written".

Hines can't tackle that difficulty, so he runs blind interference for
Richardson in the vain hope that they can become allies in shame, if not
friends after all that has passed between them here.

Richardson wishes to characterise statements made by Decker-Hauff unseen, on
the basis of a brief footnote in an edition of a later history not concerned
with genealogy, that does not in fact say what he mistakenly thought.

Obviously he can't read German any better than he can French or Latin -
unlike professional medieval historians and genealogists, who prepare
themselves for their subject to start with and then keep up with it by dint
of undertaking their own work.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 04:09:04    Tittel: Re: translation from French? Svar med Sitat

On Feb 14, 12:47 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Sitat:
Omnibus presenfcem cartam inspections, Nicholaus  Poinz, salutem.
Noverit universitas vestra quod ego, Nicholaus Poinz,  mamicepi erga
domintun meum, H. regem Anglie illustrem, pro Hngone, filio  meo,
quod idem Hugo eidem domino meo regi quod (.sic) fideliter serviet,  a
die Lime proxima post primam Dominicam quadragesime, anno regni
ipsius  regis primo inantea, et nunquam a fidelitate sua recedet. Et
si forte  contigeret quod a fidelitate sua recederet, aut fideliter ei non
serviret,  concedo quod tota terra mea erga dominum meum regem

I mean take this part for example "H. regem Anglie..."
It's fairly clear this should mean something close to "Henry the King
of England"

This part "Omnibus presenfcem cartam inspections, Nicholaus  Poinz,
salutem."
I'm surprised that this Latin translator can't figure out what Omnibus
means.
I'd say this phrase means something close to
"To all those present, this letter of inspections, I Nicholas Poyntz,
salute you"

I know almost nothing about Latin.  Tried to learn it once and failed
miserably.  As you can tell from my bad attempt.

Part of the problem is that the text posted here is badly garbled.
For instance:

"Omnibus presenfcem cartam inspections, Nicholaus Poinz, salutem"

in the published CPR actually reads:

"Omnibus *presentem* cartem *inspecturis*, Nicholaus Poinz, salutem"

"To all who read this present charter, greetings (from) Nicholas
Poyntz".

And:

"Noverit universitas vestra quod ego, Nicholaus Poinz, mamicepi erga
domintun meum, H. regem Anglie illustrem, pro Hngone, filio meo..."

should read:

"Noverit universitas vestra quod ego, Nicholaus Poinz, *manucepi* erga
*dominum* meum, H. regem Anglie illustrem, pro *Hugone*, filio meo..."

"Know ye all that I, Nicholas Poinz, pledge thus to my lord, H[enry],
illustrious king of England, on behalf of Hugh my son..."

I will try to look at the rest shortly - but it's a lovely day outside
and I'm heading off to the beach!

MA-R
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 04:10:18    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:YeNsj.462$9l1.3737@eagle.america.net...
Sitat:
Van de Pas and Stewart quite obviously do not understand the American
concept of Free Speech.

Hines demonstrates that he hasn't a clue about this concept - that is
scarcely "American", of course. Ask Voltaire.

If a person writes a letter to the editor and sends this simultaneously to
the New York Times and the Washington Times, there is no abuse or limitation
of free speech if both newspapers don't run it. Nothing is censored,
bowdlerised or silenced by being limited to one public forum rather than
being copied across several.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 04:13:55    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:eqNsj.14626$421.2912@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Sitat:

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:YeNsj.462$9l1.3737@eagle.america.net...
Van de Pas and Stewart quite obviously do not understand the American
concept of Free Speech.

Hines demonstrates that he hasn't a clue about this concept - that is
scarcely "American", of course. Ask Voltaire.

If a person writes a letter to the editor and sends this simultaneously to
the New York Times and the Washington Times, there is no abuse or
limitation of free speech if both newspapers don't run it. Nothing is
censored, bowdlerised or silenced by being limited to one public forum
rather than being copied across several.

Make that Washington Post, and I apologise to SGM readers for carelessly
failing to remove the cross-posts last time.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 04:14:03    Tittel: Re: translation from French? Svar med Sitat

On Feb 14, 1:08 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
Sitat:

Part of the problem is that the text posted here is badly garbled.
For instance:

"Omnibus presenfcem cartam inspections, Nicholaus Poinz, salutem"

in the published CPR actually reads:

"Omnibus *presentem* cartem *inspecturis*, Nicholaus Poinz, salutem"

recte: *cartam*

MA-R
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 04:31:43    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

Stewart SAYS he has READ this entire Decker-Hauff article.

SO he SHOULD be able to precisely and discretely quote the part he SAYS
disproves what DR has written -- and make a side-by-side comparison with
what DR has written.

But he chooses NOT to DO that quite simple thing.

Clearly, Stewart is not acting in Good Faith.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 04:35:09    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:BKMsj.14615$421.13440@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Sitat:

"Douglas Richardson" <royalancestry@msn.com> wrote in message
news:56443126-24af-4c56-bd2a-5ca053719533@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.com ...
On Feb 13, 3:10 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Stewart obviously needs to read Decker-Hauff's article himself.

DSH

I'll be glad to send PMS a copy when I obtain one myself.

So now you admit that you have not actually read it yet - how, pray, did
you note anything in it independently? And if you are relying only on the
footnote in Zimmerman's edition of Ebendorfer, why did you misrepresent
what this said?

Do you even know the scope of Decker-Hauff's article? For instance,
whether this gives sources for informaiton, and/or discussion of dubious
points?

When you finally succeed in obtaining a copy, and if you manage to read
this for yourself instead of trying to cadge hints from me, you will note
that Decker-Hauff actually "assigns" four (count them, 4 not 3) children
to Frederick II by Isabel of England, and that he contradicts your
conclusion about the birthdate of Margaret.

I just refreshed my memory of this - Decker-Hauff also contradicts
Richardson's pet theory that Constance (whom he persists in calling Anna
through her entire life) rather than Margaret was the daughter betrothed to
Hermann of Thuringia.

No doubt we will be treated to a comprehensive retraction once Richardson
has actually read the article that he imagined would support his position.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 04:37:21    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

Hilarious!

Stewart is so ignorant he fails to realize there IS a Washington Times.

<http://www.washingtontimes.com/>

Frightened Hypercorrection...

Followed By Pratfall...

Hoist with his own petar.

Because he failed to do his homework.

DSH

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:DtNsj.14627$421.5893@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Sitat:

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:eqNsj.14626$421.2912@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:YeNsj.462$9l1.3737@eagle.america.net...

Van de Pas and Stewart quite obviously do not understand the American
concept of Free Speech.

Hines demonstrates that he hasn't a clue about this concept - that is
scarcely "American", of course. Ask Voltaire.

If a person writes a letter to the editor and sends this simultaneously
to the New York Times and the Washington Times, there is no abuse or
limitation of free speech if both newspapers don't run it. Nothing is
censored, bowdlerised or silenced by being limited to one public forum
rather than being copied across several.

Make that Washington Post, and I apologise to SGM readers for carelessly
failing to remove the cross-posts last time.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 04:37:21    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

Hilarious!

Stewart is so ignorant he fails to realize there IS a Washington Times.

<http://www.washingtontimes.com/>

Frightened Hypercorrection...

Followed By Pratfall...

Hoist with his own petar.

Because he failed to do his homework.

DSH

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:DtNsj.14627$421.5893@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Sitat:

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com> wrote in message
news:eqNsj.14626$421.2912@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:YeNsj.462$9l1.3737@eagle.america.net...

Van de Pas and Stewart quite obviously do not understand the American
concept of Free Speech.

Hines demonstrates that he hasn't a clue about this concept - that is
scarcely "American", of course. Ask Voltaire.

If a person writes a letter to the editor and sends this simultaneously
to the New York Times and the Washington Times, there is no abuse or
limitation of free speech if both newspapers don't run it. Nothing is
censored, bowdlerised or silenced by being limited to one public forum
rather than being copied across several.

Make that Washington Post, and I apologise to SGM readers for carelessly
failing to remove the cross-posts last time.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 04:42:13    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:KKNsj.466$9l1.3661@eagle.america.net...
Sitat:
Stewart SAYS he has READ this entire Decker-Hauff article.

SO he SHOULD be able to precisely and discretely quote the part he SAYS
disproves what DR has written -- and make a side-by-side comparison with
what DR has written.

But he chooses NOT to DO that quite simple thing.

Clearly, Stewart is not acting in Good Faith.

Explain in "good faith" why I should be obliged in "good faith" to do any
such thing - or indeed to do anything at all in this matter.

Richardson's wheedling and lying won't gain free research assistance, so why
on earth should bluster from his Hawaiian off-off-sider achieve this?

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 04:46:26    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:NQNsj.467$9l1.3732@eagle.america.net...
Sitat:
Hilarious!

Stewart is so ignorant he fails to realize there IS a Washington Times.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/

Frightened Hypercorrection...

Followed By Pratfall...

Hoist with his own petar.

Because he failed to do his homework.

Rubbish - I didn't say or imply that there is no Washington Times. I merely
corrected myself because I had meant to write Washington Post in the first
place, setting one major newspaper directly alongside another.

I could equally have said New York Post, of course, but that was not to my
point as any of the "cognoscenti" would have realised immediately, unlike
Hines, without making fools of themselves.

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 05:08:20    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

Peter Stewart wrote:
Sitat:
"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:YeNsj.462$9l1.3737@eagle.america.net...
Van de Pas and Stewart quite obviously do not understand the American
concept of Free Speech.

Hines demonstrates that he hasn't a clue about this concept - that is
scarcely "American", of course. Ask Voltaire.

If a person writes a letter to the editor and sends this simultaneously to
the New York Times and the Washington Times, there is no abuse or limitation
of free speech if both newspapers don't run it. Nothing is censored,
bowdlerised or silenced by being limited to one public forum rather than
being copied across several.

Free Speech means you can express what you like in a country which
entertains Free Speech. If the media want to publish or broadcast what
you express, that is up to them. You cannot demand it.

Usenet is a different ball-game. It spans all countries which entertain
it. But there are different newsgroups for different subjects. It is not
an expression of Free Speech to deliberately make new threads in
multiple newsgroups through simultaneous (or cross-) posting. It is an
expression of egotism. Neither is it an expression of Free Speech to
plagiarise what others have written and post it to various newsgroups in
its entirety. That is not one's own Free Speech, but someone else's.
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 05:13:05    Tittel: Re: Nicholas Poyntz Svar med Sitat

CE Wood wrote:
Sitat:
A descendant for Amicia, or Avicia and John Barry is William Barry,
found in Baronia Anglica Concentrata:

http://books.google.com/books?id=NvQ7AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA374

Thanks for that link. Now this book, I can search through and read online.

Sitat:


CE Wood

On Feb 13, 4:49 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
wjhonson wrote:
John Berry
see
http://books.google.com/books?id=hqwKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA268
Vis Essex 1612, "Poyntz"
The sum total of what this Vis says re the two co-heiresses is just
Sr Nicholas Poyntz Knight son and Heir +
Ellnor dau to Sr John Erlegh Knight
and their daughters
Margaret eldest daugh and coheire mar to Sir John Nuburgh, Knt
Amys 2nd dau & coh mar to John Berry, ar.
That's it. Nothing else on the daughters, their children, other
husbands, etc.
Typical of Vis that they only trace the main surname, not the daughter
lines.
Will Johnson
Thanks. Someone else sent me the page and Amys married John Barry, not
Berry. Whether Bury/Berry/Barry were interchangeable at that time, I
don't know. This surname, Bury (supposed to descend from Pons), is
actually pronounced to rhyme with jury, suggesting it has French
origins. I've occasionally seen Berry as a spelling, but never Barry.
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 06:16:03    Tittel: Re: Fw: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of E Svar med Sitat

On Feb 13, 6:26 pm, "Leo van de Pas" <leovd...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
Sitat:
Free speech, in my opinion, is a responsibility, not a carte blanche to say
and do whatever you want.

Listen up, smug face, get your own webpages together, face aaron's

music
your history is smaltz, your attacks are vapid, your fictions are
phony

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 06:17:02    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

Sitat:
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stewart@msn.com
Explain in "good faith" why I should be obliged in "good faith" to do any
such thing - or indeed to do anything at all in this matter.

Richardson's wheedling and lying won't gain free research assistance, so why
on earth should bluster from his Hawaiian off-off-sider achieve this?

What hutzpah! You call someone a liar, you phony wheedler,
you wouln't know good faith if it bit you in the ankle

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 06:20:11    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

On Feb 13, 9:46 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
Sitat:
Rubbish - I didn't say or imply that there is no Washington Times. I merely
corrected myself because I had meant to write Washington Post in the first
place, setting one major newspaper directly alongside another.

I could equally have said New York Post, of course, but that was not to my
point as any of the "cognoscenti" would have realised immediately, unlike
Hines, without making fools of themselves.

Peter, like I said, why don't you go back to sleep, like the door
mouse

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 06:21:02    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

On Feb 13, 9:13 pm, "Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote:
Sitat:
If a person writes a letter to the editor and sends this simultaneously to
the New York Times and the Washington Times, there is no abuse or
limitation of free speech if both newspapers don't run it. Nothing is
censored, bowdlerised or silenced by being limited to one public forum
rather than being copied across several.

Make that Washington Post, and I apologise to SGM readers for carelessly
failing to remove the cross-posts last time.

Yeah, right, Mister Reader of the Canberra Broadsheet

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbing Ancestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 06:41:11    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

letiTiAflufF@gmail.com wrote:
Sitat:
On Feb 13, 11:13 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Nuts...

American Free Speech is MUCH Freer than British Free Speech.

DSH

"Renia" <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message

Oh, but I do understand it, being British, and having studied The
Enlightenment.

No, MissKnowItAll, you know nothin about politics in America
We revolted, we don't curtsey to no Queen, we don't bow and scrap to
no King
Got it? We be free, to speak our peace, no subjective nonsense you
Brits preach
on BBC, all the B***S*** Brits Condone <G

Subjective? American Free Speech is in the heart of the beholder. He
thinks he has it, because he is told he has it, so he believes it.
Americans have Free Speech, as long as it is the propaganda they are taught.
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 06:54:03    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

On Feb 13, 3:11 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Sitat:
Google gives everyone the option to crosspost to another newsgroup
when they post a message to the gen.medieval newsgroup. On occasion,
I exercise that option. It's called free speech.

As Mr. Richardson well knows, Google is nothing more than one possible
mechanism by which one posts to USENET. It is a tool, nothing more.
It does not set the rules of USENET propriety. Waving this lame claim
to free speech as if it were a magic wand that miraculously negates
the impropriety of the 'speech' is nothing but self-serving tripe.

taf
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 06:55:03    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

On Feb 13, 4:01 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:

Sitat:
We can certainly do without the name calling and baiting, Michael.
It only makes you look like a troll.

You're right about one thing, though. Crossposting is a choice for
all of us. And, occasionally some of us exercise that option. That's
what free speech is all about, both here on the internet and
elsewhere.

This is rich. First you take another poster to task, indicating that
he should modify his words because "we can certainly do without it":
that the good of the group should be taken into account and that he
should self-censor his free speech accordingly. Then you go on to
state that you can say whatever you want, where ever you want, because
that is practicing your right of free speech, (and, implicitly, the
group be damned).

You tell him that his post fails to respect the group: the same group
you abjectly, utterly, hypocritically refuse to respect.

taf
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 06:55:39    Tittel: Re: Geography Svar med Sitat

It apparently has a very long history of being called the same name, in
spite of blips here and there like Iran Gulf or Arabian Gulf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Gulf

----- Original Message -----
From: "Leo van de Pas" <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:40 PM
Subject: Geography


Sitat:
Some geographical names are taken for granted, but sometimes they have
changed. Like Iran was Persia, but what I wonder about is, the Persian
Gulf was this always known as such? What in the 1400s?

Does anyone know?
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas,
Canberra, Australia

-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEVAL-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 07:08:42    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

letiTiAflufF@gmail.com wrote:
Sitat:
On Feb 13, 11:41 pm, Renia <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote:
letiTiAfl...@gmail.com wrote:
On Feb 13, 11:13 pm, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Nuts...
American Free Speech is MUCH Freer than British Free Speech.
DSH
"Renia" <re...@DELETEotenet.gr> wrote in message
Oh, but I do understand it, being British, and having studied The
Enlightenment.
No, MissKnowItAll, you know nothin about politics in America
We revolted, we don't curtsey to no Queen, we don't bow and scrap to
no King
Got it? We be free, to speak our peace, no subjective nonsense you
Brits preach
on BBC, all the B***S*** Brits Condone <G
Subjective? American Free Speech is in the heart of the beholder. He
thinks he has it, because he is told he has it, so he believes it.
Americans have Free Speech, as long as it is the propaganda they are taught.

So, a subject of HM the Queen is going to tell an American who has
free speech
how to talk, how to walk, how to think, what to think, what not to
crosspost?
Please, tell it to the Queen, looking in the mirror, of course,
MissKnowItAll

That doesn't follow, now, does it? I didn't say any of those things, Aaron.
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 07:58:39    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

Twaddle...

The criticisms of DR by taf and his herd animals here on SGM violate the
Rules Of Enlightened & Courteous Free Speech FAR more than anything Douglas
Richardson posts.

DSH

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

<taf@clearwire.net> wrote in message
news:b95e1da3-0d60-40d7-851c-f000260fc3e7@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com ...

Sitat:
On Feb 13, 3:11 pm, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
Google gives everyone the option to crosspost to another newsgroup
when they post a message to the gen.medieval newsgroup. On occasion,
I exercise that option. It's called free speech.

As Mr. Richardson well knows, Google is nothing more than one possible
mechanism by which one posts to USENET. It is a tool, nothing more.
It does not set the rules of USENET propriety. Waving this lame claim
to free speech as if it were a magic wand that miraculously negates
the impropriety of the 'speech' is nothing but self-serving tripe.

taf
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 08:19:03    Tittel: Re: translation from French? Svar med Sitat

On Feb 14, 1:08 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

Sitat:
I will try to look at the rest shortly, but it's a lovely day
outside and I'm heading off to the beach!

Right - I'm back.

Here is the corrected text from the published Calendar of Patent
Rolls:

"Omnibus presentem cartam inspecturis, Nicholaus Poinz, salutem.
Noverit universitas vestra quod ego, Nicholaus Poinz, manucepi erga
dominum meum, H. regem Anglie illustrem, pro Hugone, filio meo, quod
idem Hugo eidem domino meo regi quod (sic) fideliter serviet, a die
Lune proxima post primam Dominicam quadragesime, anno regni ipsius
regis primo inantea, et nunquam a fidelitate sua recedet. Et si forte
contigeret quod a fidelitate sua recederet, aut fideliter ei non
serviret, concedo quod tota terra mea erga dominum meum regem
incurratur. Insuper autem ego, Nicholaus Poinz, liberavi domino meo
regi Ceciliam filiam Beatricis, filie mee, in obsidem et securitatem
fidelis servicii ipsius Hugonis Poinz, filii mei. Et in hujus rei
testimonium, et ad majorem securitatem, huic scripto sigillum meum
apposui, et ad securitatem fidelis servicii dicti Hugonis Poinz, W. de
Lacy, J. de Monum[uta], H. de Mortuo Mari, W. de Clifford, R. de
Clifford, se principales plegii constituerunt. Hiis testibus, domino
W. Eboracensi archiepiscopo, domino H. Dublinensi archiepiscopo, P.
Wintoniensi episcopo, domino W. Marescallo, comite Penbrochie, R. de
Marisco, cancellario domini regis, domino T. de Erdintton"

And here is the translation:

"To all who read this present charter, Nicholas Poyntz sendeth
greetings. Know ye all that I, Nicholas Poyntz, pledge thus to my
lord, Henry the illustrious King of England, on behalf of Hugh , my
son, that the said Hugh will faithfully serve the same my lord the
King, from Monday next after the first Sunday in Lent in the first
year of the reign of the said King and henceforth, and not to withdraw
his loyalty. And if perchance it should happen that his loyalty be
withdrawn, or be not served, I grant that all my lands shall be
forfeited to my lord the King. Moreover I, Nicholas Poyntz, surrender
unto my lord the King Cecilia the daughter of Beatrice, my
daughter(*), as a hostage and pledge for the loyal service of the said
Hugh Poyntz, my son. And in witness of this, and to secure it, I have
attached my seal hereto, and for the security of this loyal service
Hugh Poyntz, W. De Lacy, J. De Monumata, H. de Mortimer, W. De
Clifford and R. De Clifford make themselves the chief pledges.
Witnessed by: W., Lord Archbishop of York; H., Lord Archbishop of
Dublin; P. Bishop of Winchester; Lord W. Marshal, Earl of Pembroke; R.
De Marisco [Marsh], chancellor of the Lord King, and Lord T. De
Erdington".

Apologies for my rusty Latin - I am currently a long way from my
dictionaries and Latin-grammars, and it is many years since I was a
(largely inattentive) student of the language. Corrections welcome.

NB "Ceciliam filiam Beatricis, filie mee" literally means "Cecily the
daughter of Beatrice, my daughter" - this could be read in two
different ways:

(a) Cecily is the daughter of Beatrice, who is Nicholas Poyntz's
daughter
(b) Cecily (the daughter of Beatrice), Nicholas Poyntz's daughter.

Reading (a) seems more likely to me.

Kind regards, Michael
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 08:34:02    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

On Feb 14, 3:53 pm, "letiTiAfl...@gmail.com" <letiTiAfl...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Sitat:
So, a subject of HM the Queen is going to tell an American who has
free speech
how to talk, how to walk, how to think, what to think, what not to
crosspost?
Please, tell it to the Queen, looking in the mirror, of course,
MissKnowItAll

persiflage, persiflage, persiflage

~Bret, scion of Charle de Magne

http://Back-stabbingAncestral Descendants ASSoc.genealogy.medieval

Hm, you are disappointingly dull.

Do you know any other songs?

MA-R
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 08:44:03    Tittel: Re: translation from French? Svar med Sitat

On Feb 13, 10:18 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
Sitat:
"To all who read this present charter, Nicholas Poyntz sendeth
greetings.  Know ye all that I, Nicholas Poyntz, pledge thus to my
lord, Henry the illustrious King of England, on behalf of Hugh , my
son, that the said Hugh will faithfully serve the same my lord the
King, from Monday next after the first Sunday in Lent in the first
year of the reign of the said King and henceforth, and not to withdraw
his loyalty.  And if perchance it should happen that his loyalty be
withdrawn, or be not served, I grant that all my lands shall be
forfeited to my lord the King.  Moreover I, Nicholas Poyntz, surrender
unto my lord the King Cecilia the daughter of Beatrice, my
daughter(*), as a hostage and pledge for the loyal service of the said
Hugh Poyntz, my son.  And in witness of this, and to secure it, I have
attached my seal hereto, and for the security of this loyal service
Hugh Poyntz, W. De Lacy, J. De Monumata, H. de Mortimer, W. De
Clifford and R. De Clifford make themselves the chief pledges.
Witnessed by: W., Lord Archbishop of York; H., Lord Archbishop of
Dublin; P. Bishop of Winchester; Lord W. Marshal, Earl of Pembroke; R.
De Marisco [Marsh], chancellor of the Lord King, and Lord T. De
Erdington".



Richard Marisco was Chancellor from 1214 to 1226
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Marsh_(politician)
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 08:54:04    Tittel: Re: translation from French? Svar med Sitat

On Feb 14, 5:40 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
Sitat:
On Feb 13, 10:18 pm, mj...@btinternet.com wrote:

"To all who read this present charter, Nicholas Poyntz sendeth
greetings.  Know ye all that I, Nicholas Poyntz, pledge thus to my
lord, Henry the illustrious King of England, on behalf of Hugh , my
son, that the said Hugh will faithfully serve the same my lord the
King, from Monday next after the first Sunday in Lent in the first
year of the reign of the said King and henceforth, and not to withdraw
his loyalty.  And if perchance it should happen that his loyalty be
withdrawn, or be not served, I grant that all my lands shall be
forfeited to my lord the King.  Moreover I, Nicholas Poyntz, surrender
unto my lord the King Cecilia the daughter of Beatrice, my
daughter(*), as a hostage and pledge for the loyal service of the said
Hugh Poyntz, my son.  And in witness of this, and to secure it, I have
attached my seal hereto, and for the security of this loyal service
Hugh Poyntz, W. De Lacy, J. De Monumata, H. de Mortimer, W. de
Clifford and R. de Clifford make themselves the chief pledges.
Witnessed by: W., Lord Archbishop of York; H., Lord Archbishop of
Dublin; P. Bishop of Winchester; Lord W. Marshal, Earl of Pembroke; R.
De Marisco [Marsh], chancellor of the Lord King, and Lord T. De
Erdington".

Richard Marisco was Chancellor from 1214 to 1226
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Marsh_(politician)

The entry from the Patent Rolls is dated 1216.

W. of York is thus Walter de Gray, Archbishop from 1216 to 1255
H. of Dublin is thus Henry de Londres, Archbishop from 1213 to 1228
P. of Winchester is thus Peter de Roches, Bishop from 1205 to 1238

MA-R
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 09:34:02    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

On 14 feb, 03:37, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:
Sitat:
Hilarious!

I liked your contributions from the early '90 better. In those you

provided the illusion that you could write a coherent story/letter.
The one to DR was quite a surprise. Nowadays your mastering of the
English Language is ........, tja limited. Short statements that only
you seem to liken. Old man, it is time you retire. Waldorf and
Staetler are funnier.

Hans


Sitat:
Stewart is so ignorant he fails to realize there IS a Washington Times.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/

Frightened Hypercorrection...

Followed By Pratfall...

Hoist with his own petar.

Because he failed to do his homework.

DSH

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum

"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote in message

news:DtNsj.14627$421.5893@news-server.bigpond.net.au...





"Peter Stewart" <p_m_stew...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:eqNsj.14626$421.2912@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:YeNsj.462$9l1.3737@eagle.america.net...
Van de Pas and Stewart quite obviously do not understand the American
concept of Free Speech.

Hines demonstrates that he hasn't a clue about this concept - that is
scarcely "American", of course. Ask Voltaire.

If a person writes a letter to the editor and sends this simultaneously
to the New York Times and the Washington Times, there is no abuse or
limitation of free speech if both newspapers don't run it. Nothing is
censored, bowdlerised or silenced by being limited to one public forum
rather than being copied across several.

Make that Washington Post, and I apologise to SGM readers for carelessly
failing to remove the cross-posts last time.

Peter Stewart- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht niet weergeven -

- Tekst uit oorspronkelijk bericht weergeven -
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 10:30:17    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241),Wife of Empero Svar med Sitat

Matthew 7:6

DSH

"Volucris" <volucris@kpnplanet.nl> wrote in message
news:ab5eb2bc-2871-4b1c-bd2f-99d502f823a2@e6g2000prf.googlegroups.com. ..

Sitat:
On 14 feb, 03:37, "D. Spencer Hines" <pant...@excelsior.com> wrote:

Hilarious!

<baldersnip>

Sitat:
Stewart is so ignorant he fails to realize there IS a Washington Times.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/

Frightened Hypercorrection...

Followed By Pratfall...

Hoist with his own petar.

Because he failed to do his homework.

DSH

Veni, Vidi, Calcitravi Asinum
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 10:44:03    Tittel: Re: translation from French? Svar med Sitat

thanks to all that worked on the translation. Since we know Nicholas was
married to Juliana Bardolf, Cecilia must be a daughter of Beatrice. I wish
Nicholas had given Beatrice's married name at least.
Is this the Nicholas that was son of Pons Fitzsimon? The Visitation of
Gloucestershire 1623 says Nicholas was the son of a Hugh (I dont have the page
number handy), but I believe there was a discussion on this list about Pons
Fitzsimon. I still need to go thru the archived messages for the Poyntz surname.

Ken




**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy
Awards. Go to AOL Music.
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InnleggSkrevet: 14 Feb 2008 10:56:57    Tittel: Re: Children of Isabel of England (Died 1241), Wife of Emper Svar med Sitat

"D. Spencer Hines" <panther@excelsior.com> wrote in message
news:sMQsj.472$9l1.3704@eagle.america.net...
Sitat:
Twaddle...

The criticisms of DR by taf and his herd animals here on SGM violate the
Rules Of Enlightened & Courteous Free Speech FAR more than anything
Douglas
Richardson posts.

O dear, are nasty people saying unkind things about Spencer's little
Dougie-Wougie?

Things like

http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2004-03/1078995951

for instance - where CAN they get such wicked ideas, how COULD they be so
mean...

And there is SO much more like this in the archive, much of it from the same
beastly Doppelganger Spencer Hines.

Peter Stewart
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