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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Sep 2004 03:13:28    Tittel: Re: Duvall/Brasseur Questions Svar med Sitat

Whom do you have as the Jordan Grandfather of this Thomas Jordan who
allegedly married Margaret Brasseur in Sep 1658 reportedly in Surry
County, Virginia?

DSH

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:cit2tg$irs$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
| JKent10581@aol.com wrote:
|
| > In a message dated 9/22/04 10:35:28 AM Central Daylight Time,
| > SPerkins@interaccess.com writes:
| >
| >>Several of us on this list descend from Benois Brasseur<
| >
| >
| > Do you have anything on the ancestry of Benois Brasseur? He is my
ancestor.
| >
| > Jno
| >
|
| There is more than one Benois Brasseur. How does this one relate
| to my Brasseur ancestor, Rev. Robert Brassure (of VA) whose daughter
| Margaret married Thomas Jordan?
|
| Doug McDonald
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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Sep 2004 05:37:09    Tittel: Re: Sarrasine de Lezay b 1067- d 1144, wife if Hugues VII de Svar med Sitat

Dear Peter,
Thank You for the information.
Sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA
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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Sep 2004 08:35:50    Tittel: Re: OT Duvall Question Svar med Sitat

Dear John ~

You can add the Richardson family of Salt Lake City to the list of
descendants of Susannah (Duvall) Tyler of Maryland. My six children
and I are all descended from Susannah and her father, Mareen Duvall,
the immigrant. This is the real French connection.

Best always, Douglas Richardson

Therav3@aol.com wrote in message news:<7f.4c64c548.2e82d9c0@aol.com>...
Sitat:
Wednesday, 22 September, 2004


Dear John (SG), Jeff, Spencer, et al.,

Maureen Duvall's daughter Susannah (by his 2nd wife Susannah
Brasseur/Brashears), wife of Robert Tyler of Queen Anne Parish,
Prince George's Co., Maryland, is the ancestress of a large horde,
including the memorable (Harry S. Truman - at least one of the lines
JSG noted; the Rev. John Thomas Wheat; Major Chatham Roberdeau
Wheat, CSA; the Rev. (and Congressman) Francis Emanuel Shober of New
York; and the Wheat family of "Wheat First Securities" fame) as well
as the not-so (myself).

Maureen Duvall the emigrant may not be the holder of the title
"Kilroy of Maryland colonial genealogy", but he was/is certainly a
contender...

Cheers,

John
x
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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Sep 2004 11:26:11    Tittel: Re: > > > > mothafuckas matt parker alias e_von_lunsen_hout Svar med Sitat

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alias evon_lunsen_hout matt parker alias erikvan
Sitat:
lunsenhout matt parker alias eric von lindt hout matt parker alias e_lint fartings matt parker alias erikvanlunsenhout matt parker alias evon lint hout matt parker alias e_von_lintherzog matt parker alias michhelle matt parker alias evl krgyzstan marriage matt parker alias eric lunsen matt parker alias chess base matt parker is a liar from leuven louvain belgium that lives in cottage
grove oregon matt parker alias kimberly_parker matt parker alias eric vanlint hout matt parker alias matt_parker matt parker alias erikvon_lunsen_herzog fuks matt parker alias peace now matt parker alias ericvon lindt hout matt parker alias ericvon lint matt parker alias t_dchenka western union matt parker alias e_vanlindthout the dismissed employees filed an official complaint against
matt parker with the us embassy matt parker alias erikvanlunsenherzog stole members of eurobrides.com have access to adult material depicting minors in sexual acts matt parker alias best dayisnow matt parker alias eric_vanlunsen_herzog matt parker alias erikvanlint_herzog matt parker alias kimberlyparker matt parker alias e_parker groupsex matt parker alias geronimo jones matt parke
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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Sep 2004 15:23:40    Tittel: Re: Sarrasine de Lezay b 1067- d 1144, wife if Hugues VII de Svar med Sitat

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote in message news:<fd.207a591.2e8382ca@aol.com>...
Sitat:
Dear Peter,
Thank You for the information.

I wasn't paying due attention before to the subject line - the years
of birth and death given in your web sources for Sarrazine are just
guesses. We have no way of knowing when she might have been born, nor
when she or even her husband died to the accuracy of a year (although
in his case this could have been as early as ca 1144 and she had
evidently predeceased him).

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Sep 2004 17:49:23    Tittel: toads --- OT, but see rec.heraldry Svar med Sitat

GRHaleJr@aol.com wrote:
Sitat:



They do have "horns" although they are not of the same material as horns on
bovines, etc. I have been stuck by the horns, as have most people who have
attempted to handle them. I have never seen the blood squirting and I have
"played" with them for most of my younger years. They were plentiful 30 or 40
years ago but they are endangered now. The tale most prevelant is that
their main food was the red (harvester) ants and the tropical fire ants have
invaded and destroyed the red ants. The lizards supposedly cannot eat the fire
ants, so they have died out. There is also the tale that insecticide use has
destroyed. I don't buy the insecticide story.



They disappeared from my home ... North Ft. Worth ... at
exactly the same time we conquered the ants. The latter was
a long and costly battle that lasted years, and was
neighborhood-wide, but eventually they, they ants, were
totally driven out. And with them the horny toads, which
is what we called them. I think the toads are still
plentiful in rural West Texas and New Mexico.

*************************************************************

Not on topic, but closer: a Horned Toad Vert sits
proudly atop the crest of my totally bogus coat of arms.

Doug McDonald
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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Sep 2004 18:14:21    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"George" <gblack@hnpl.net> wrote in message
news:9b937279.0409221243.1c6ed6b1@posting.google.com...
Sitat:
"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:<aw44d.409$CS6.335@newsfe5-win.ntli.net>...
"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:s804d.240$qH4.6743@eagle.america.net...
MORE Twaddle, Balderdash and Codswallop From The Usual Quarters....

Gordo has found a friend.

The superb, hard-working, sober, non-drug-addicted, Tower of London
officials know their British History -- whereas this scruffy, fat,
uneducated -- self-admitted cocaine-sniffing and marijuana-smoking --
English rampant pogue obviously does NOT. His abuse of illegal drugs
has obviously fried and pickled his brain.

Just to interject here.
When I was in London in 1987 and 1989 I went into the Tower a number
of times as there is quite a lot to take in. The Tower of London has a
number of guides who are very vocal and have their own stories about
the Tower..The only decent look around the Tower that I got was with
an old fellow ex matelot..
In fact there were two or three different tales about different parts
of the Tower.
The baptisimal font for one...

They are pretty good on the whole, but it is a matter of luck - for some it is
a job, and they enjoy being showmen, but some are genuinely fascinated by the
subject and really know their stuff. They all do their job well, and with flair
not an easy job!).

Unfortunately, some of the historical facts they include in their presentation
are not really 'facts', and some of the notes, handouts, guide books and
information signs are inaccurate, and misleading. The Tower is a place of
legend, and there's nothing wrong with that, although I think perhaps there
should be more emphasis on *that* fact than just regurgitation of those legends
as 'history', lovely old stuff that they are.

I'd not criticise the Warders - they bring the place to life and are excellent -
but they are entertainers, not historians. If they were, they'd no doubt bore
everyone to death! That's my task....

David Spencer Hines, I wish to know more of this Duke of Essex that was at
Agincourt - I call you out Sir - explain yourself to my satisfaction, or I shall
have to push the matter further!
Cheers
Martin
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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Sep 2004 19:18:51    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:xDC4d.553$H81.187@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
Sitat:

snip


Sitat:

David Spencer Hines, I wish to know more of this Duke of Essex that
was at
Agincourt - I call you out Sir - explain yourself to my satisfaction,
or I shall
have to push the matter further!
Cheers
Martin



I think Sweyne was the first Dook of Earl, after the conquest, pre
conquest Harold and his cousin Beorn then his brothers Gyrth and
Leofwine were earldormen of East Anglia rather than just Essex.
Sweyne's son Robert (fitz- Sweyne) lost out on the earldom to Geoffrey
de Mandeville in the struggle between Stephen and Matilda, quite why I
don't know. His son, Henry of Essex (fitz-Robert) was a favourite of
Henry II, possibly his staller (standard bearer) and one of the largest
land owners in England. On campaign in Wales with Henry II, H
fitz-Robert bolted from an ambush throwing away the standard, Henry does
not appear to have held this against him, but six years later one of his
enemies, Robert de Montfort Earl of Leicester accused him of cowardice
over the episode and a challenge of trial by combat was issued, although
the dispute between them was nothing to do with the Welsh affair.
Henry of Essex lost and was stripped of all his lands, but his life was
spared by the King and he spent the remainder of his life as a monk at
Reading.

Jamie
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InnleggSkrevet: 23 Sep 2004 19:42:27    Tittel: Medieval English Records--Recommendations Sought Svar med Sitat

A few years ago, Robert Leigh Ward published in several articles (NEHGR 141:108, The Genealogist 6:166, TAG 56:141) the results of
his research into the ancestry of Mayflower passenger Henry Sampson. No royal descent, but a distinguished collection nonetheless,
back to Domesday lord Guy de Reinbudcourt.

I am interested in fleshing out and if possible extending Ward’s work. In doing so, I have a problem which is somewhat unusual, and
for which I would like advice from the members of this interest group. My problem is not too few records to examine, but too many: A
local library has 50-100 meters of shelves devoted to medieval English and Scottish records. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem,
Feudal Aids, Feet of Fines, Close Rolls, Patent Rolls, wills, Star Chamber Proceedings, charters, and on and on. Can anyone suggest
an ordered approach to my research for the two dozen or so surnames of interest? Unlike the Complete Peerage, almost all of the
volumes are indexed by persons and/or places, but still it is a big job. The variations in surname and place name spellings adds to
the labor. At my advanced age, I doubt I will have the time to go through every volume, and I’d like to proceed in some sort of
systematic way--something I have trouble doing at times. Perhaps SGM members have some favorite sequence they follow. Suggestions,
please.

For what it’s worth, here’s a list of the names, along with at least some of the counties where they had property:

Braybrook (Braybroc, Braybroke)--Northants

Camera (Camara)--Northants?

Chesney--Northants

Cole--Devon

Foliot--Yorkshire, Northants, Bedfordshire

Gilbert/Gilbarde--Somerset

Gouvis (Gouis, Goues, Govitz, many other variations)--Normandy, Wiltshire, Dorset

Greene--Bedfordshire, poss. connected to Greenes of Greene’s Norton, Northants

Hody (Huddy)--Somserset

Hull--Dorset

Jewe (Jeu, Jowe, Geue)--Somerset, Devon, Dorset

Latimer--Dorset, Northants, Yorkshire

Ledet--Northants

Lincoln--Dorset

L’Isle?--Northants

Neufmarche--Northants

Page--Bedfordshire, London

Peche--

Pillesdon--Dorset

Pipard--

Reinbudcourt--Northants

===================
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InnleggSkrevet: 24 Sep 2004 01:44:58    Tittel: Re: Medieval English Records--Recommendations Sought Svar med Sitat

Hello,

You might wish to consult Robert Leigh Ward himself for ideas (and to confirm he hasn't already done the work). Here's his e-mail address:

rlward1@erols.com

I have contacted him on occassion and found him friendly and helpful.

Dave Morehouse
Hopkins, MN
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InnleggSkrevet: 24 Sep 2004 14:29:45    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:civ0kp$ebn$2@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Sitat:

"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:xDC4d.553$H81.187@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

snip


David Spencer Hines, I wish to know more of this Duke of Essex that
was at
Agincourt - I call you out Sir - explain yourself to my satisfaction,
or I shall
have to push the matter further!
Cheers
Martin



I think Sweyne was the first Dook of Earl, after the conquest, pre
conquest Harold and his cousin Beorn then his brothers Gyrth and
Leofwine were earldormen of East Anglia rather than just Essex.
Sweyne's son Robert (fitz- Sweyne) lost out on the earldom to Geoffrey
de Mandeville in the struggle between Stephen and Matilda, quite why I
don't know. His son, Henry of Essex (fitz-Robert) was a favourite of
Henry II, possibly his staller (standard bearer) and one of the largest
land owners in England. On campaign in Wales with Henry II, H
fitz-Robert bolted from an ambush throwing away the standard, Henry does
not appear to have held this against him, but six years later one of his
enemies, Robert de Montfort Earl of Leicester accused him of cowardice
over the episode and a challenge of trial by combat was issued, although
the dispute between them was nothing to do with the Welsh affair.
Henry of Essex lost and was stripped of all his lands, but his life was
spared by the King and he spent the remainder of his life as a monk at
Reading.

Thanks Jamie. He must have been getting on a bit by 1415 though?
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InnleggSkrevet: 24 Sep 2004 18:30:18    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message news:<civ0kp$ebn$2@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
Sitat:
"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:xDC4d.553$H81.187@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

snip


David Spencer Hines, I wish to know more of this Duke of Essex that
was at
Agincourt - I call you out Sir - explain yourself to my satisfaction,
or I shall
have to push the matter further!
Cheers
Martin



I think Sweyne was the first Dook of Earl, after the conquest, pre
conquest Harold and his cousin Beorn then his brothers Gyrth and
Leofwine were earldormen of East Anglia rather than just Essex.
Sweyne's son Robert (fitz- Sweyne) lost out on the earldom to Geoffrey
de Mandeville in the struggle between Stephen and Matilda, quite why I
don't know. His son, Henry of Essex (fitz-Robert) was a favourite of
Henry II, possibly his staller (standard bearer) and one of the largest
land owners in England. On campaign in Wales with Henry II, H
fitz-Robert bolted from an ambush throwing away the standard, Henry does
not appear to have held this against him, but six years later one of his
enemies, Robert de Montfort Earl of Leicester accused him of cowardice
over the episode and a challenge of trial by combat was issued, although
the dispute between them was nothing to do with the Welsh affair.
Henry of Essex lost and was stripped of all his lands, but his life was
spared by the King and he spent the remainder of his life as a monk at
Reading.

Jamie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Goodness, they were REALLY SERIOUS about being
brave and showing no cowardice. My question pertains
not to Henry II but to the first Duke of Exeter.
Was Exeter the manor which is now called Exeter the
publick school ? We Americans hear about Eton,
Exeter, Harrow, and others. Any connection here ?

DAVID H (of the V & G coalition against the Loon
fraternity)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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InnleggSkrevet: 24 Sep 2004 19:20:50    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"David Holiman" <dcholiman@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:4315ddc6.0409240830.1170c465@posting.google.com...
Sitat:
"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:<civ0kp$ebn$2@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:xDC4d.553$H81.187@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

snip


David Spencer Hines, I wish to know more of this Duke of Essex that
was at
Agincourt - I call you out Sir - explain yourself to my satisfaction,
or I shall
have to push the matter further!
Cheers
Martin



I think Sweyne was the first Dook of Earl, after the conquest, pre
conquest Harold and his cousin Beorn then his brothers Gyrth and
Leofwine were earldormen of East Anglia rather than just Essex.
Sweyne's son Robert (fitz- Sweyne) lost out on the earldom to Geoffrey
de Mandeville in the struggle between Stephen and Matilda, quite why I
don't know. His son, Henry of Essex (fitz-Robert) was a favourite of
Henry II, possibly his staller (standard bearer) and one of the largest
land owners in England. On campaign in Wales with Henry II, H
fitz-Robert bolted from an ambush throwing away the standard, Henry does
not appear to have held this against him, but six years later one of his
enemies, Robert de Montfort Earl of Leicester accused him of cowardice
over the episode and a challenge of trial by combat was issued, although
the dispute between them was nothing to do with the Welsh affair.
Henry of Essex lost and was stripped of all his lands, but his life was
spared by the King and he spent the remainder of his life as a monk at
Reading.

Jamie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Goodness, they were REALLY SERIOUS about being
brave and showing no cowardice. My question pertains
not to Henry II but to the first Duke of Exeter.
Was Exeter the manor which is now called Exeter the
publick school ? We Americans hear about Eton,
Exeter, Harrow, and others. Any connection here ?

Surely Winchester? Oh well, never mind.....

DSH has been very brave in bringing up the subject of the Duke of Essex, but
seems to have gone rather quiet all of a suddn for some reason. Unlike him not
to rise to a challenge, but the blood of those venerable, doughty ancestors you
mention clearly runs very thinly in his hardened arteries, and courage is not
transferred genetically.


Sitat:
DAVID H (of the V & G coalition against the Loon
fraternity)


Is that like the V&A?
Cheers
Martin
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InnleggSkrevet: 25 Sep 2004 01:39:11    Tittel: Re: Idenity of Sybil, wife of Sir Hugh le DeSpencer Svar med Sitat

Dear Brad,
When You say Everton Mosbury, Bedfordshire passed from the
Pembrokes to the Talbots, do You mean that it passed through the Clares,
Marshals, Munchensys, de Valence and Comyn Families to that of Baron Talbot? If
so this document of 1322 Is of Richard Talbot, husband of Elizabeth Comyn of
the Badenoch branch. Richard would succeed his father in about 1331 according
to BXP p 527.
sincerely,

James W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA
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InnleggSkrevet: 25 Sep 2004 11:50:41    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"David Holiman" <dcholiman@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:4315ddc6.0409240830.1170c465@posting.google.com...
Sitat:
"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
message news:<civ0kp$ebn$2@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:xDC4d.553$H81.187@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

snip


David Spencer Hines, I wish to know more of this Duke of Essex
that
was at
Agincourt - I call you out Sir - explain yourself to my
satisfaction,
or I shall
have to push the matter further!
Cheers
Martin



I think Sweyne was the first Dook of Earl, after the conquest, pre
conquest Harold and his cousin Beorn then his brothers Gyrth and
Leofwine were earldormen of East Anglia rather than just Essex.
Sweyne's son Robert (fitz- Sweyne) lost out on the earldom to
Geoffrey
de Mandeville in the struggle between Stephen and Matilda, quite why
I
don't know. His son, Henry of Essex (fitz-Robert) was a favourite of
Henry II, possibly his staller (standard bearer) and one of the
largest
land owners in England. On campaign in Wales with Henry II, H
fitz-Robert bolted from an ambush throwing away the standard, Henry
does
not appear to have held this against him, but six years later one of
his
enemies, Robert de Montfort Earl of Leicester accused him of
cowardice
over the episode and a challenge of trial by combat was issued,
although
the dispute between them was nothing to do with the Welsh affair.
Henry of Essex lost and was stripped of all his lands, but his life
was
spared by the King and he spent the remainder of his life as a monk
at
Reading.

Jamie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Goodness, they were REALLY SERIOUS about being
brave and showing no cowardice. My question pertains
not to Henry II but to the first Duke of Exeter.
Was Exeter the manor which is now called Exeter the
publick school ? We Americans hear about Eton,
Exeter, Harrow, and others. Any connection here ?

DAVID H (of the V & G coalition against the Loon
fraternity)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Exeter was originally the Roman fort / city of Isca, 10 miles up the
river Exe, it controlled the southern part of Britain, the land of the
Dumonii or the West Welsh to the Anglo-Saxons (King Arthur country in
legend). It's first mentioned in the ASC (876) when the Viking *Great
Army* of Guthrum and Halfdan are attacking Alfred the Great's Wessex.
The West Welsh do not appear to have had any aversion to joining with
Guthrum against the West Saxons, Guthrum seems to have tried to encircle
Alfred by sending a fleet to Exeter while attacking from what would
become the *Danelaw*, with a mounted raiding army.
Luckily for Alfred the Viking fleet was wrecked in a storm off Swanage,
120 ships were lost according to the ASC.

The first Norman connection to Exeter is in 1003, Emma of Normandy (who
/Ethelred the Unready had married to make an alliance with the Normans)
set a French *churl* (ASC) called Hugh over Exeter as reeve (Florence
calls him comitis / count).
When Exeter is attacked by Sven Forkbeard and his son Cnut (both later
kings of England) Hugh appears to have not put up any resistance.
Exeter was lost "through the bad counsel, carelessness and treachery of
the Norman count Hugh" according to Florence

Sven had previously driven his father Harold Bluetooth out of Denmark. .
According to the GND Harold and his fleet / people, had gone to Normandy
and been given land on the Cotentin (Cherbourg peninsular) by Duke
William Longsword. Harold had later come to the aid of Bernard the Dane
(steward of Duke Richard I) when the French and Flemings were trying to
deprive the young Duke Richard of his birthright.
(Which Harold this was is disputed by historians)

Jamie
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InnleggSkrevet: 25 Sep 2004 11:54:52    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

Vaughn, David H and others,
while this thread definitely is interesting, it doesn't seem to be a
question for sci.archaeology do discuss. Does it?

Inger E

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i
meddelandet news:cj3f34$3g9$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
Sitat:

"David Holiman" <dcholiman@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:4315ddc6.0409240830.1170c465@posting.google.com...
"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
message news:<civ0kp$ebn$2@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:xDC4d.553$H81.187@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

snip


David Spencer Hines, I wish to know more of this Duke of Essex
that
was at
Agincourt - I call you out Sir - explain yourself to my
satisfaction,
or I shall
have to push the matter further!
Cheers
Martin



I think Sweyne was the first Dook of Earl, after the conquest, pre
conquest Harold and his cousin Beorn then his brothers Gyrth and
Leofwine were earldormen of East Anglia rather than just Essex.
Sweyne's son Robert (fitz- Sweyne) lost out on the earldom to
Geoffrey
de Mandeville in the struggle between Stephen and Matilda, quite why
I
don't know. His son, Henry of Essex (fitz-Robert) was a favourite of
Henry II, possibly his staller (standard bearer) and one of the
largest
land owners in England. On campaign in Wales with Henry II, H
fitz-Robert bolted from an ambush throwing away the standard, Henry
does
not appear to have held this against him, but six years later one of
his
enemies, Robert de Montfort Earl of Leicester accused him of
cowardice
over the episode and a challenge of trial by combat was issued,
although
the dispute between them was nothing to do with the Welsh affair.
Henry of Essex lost and was stripped of all his lands, but his life
was
spared by the King and he spent the remainder of his life as a monk
at
Reading.

Jamie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Goodness, they were REALLY SERIOUS about being
brave and showing no cowardice. My question pertains
not to Henry II but to the first Duke of Exeter.
Was Exeter the manor which is now called Exeter the
publick school ? We Americans hear about Eton,
Exeter, Harrow, and others. Any connection here ?

DAVID H (of the V & G coalition against the Loon
fraternity)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Exeter was originally the Roman fort / city of Isca, 10 miles up the
river Exe, it controlled the southern part of Britain, the land of the
Dumonii or the West Welsh to the Anglo-Saxons (King Arthur country in
legend). It's first mentioned in the ASC (876) when the Viking *Great
Army* of Guthrum and Halfdan are attacking Alfred the Great's Wessex.
The West Welsh do not appear to have had any aversion to joining with
Guthrum against the West Saxons, Guthrum seems to have tried to encircle
Alfred by sending a fleet to Exeter while attacking from what would
become the *Danelaw*, with a mounted raiding army.
Luckily for Alfred the Viking fleet was wrecked in a storm off Swanage,
120 ships were lost according to the ASC.

The first Norman connection to Exeter is in 1003, Emma of Normandy (who
/Ethelred the Unready had married to make an alliance with the Normans)
set a French *churl* (ASC) called Hugh over Exeter as reeve (Florence
calls him comitis / count).
When Exeter is attacked by Sven Forkbeard and his son Cnut (both later
kings of England) Hugh appears to have not put up any resistance.
Exeter was lost "through the bad counsel, carelessness and treachery of
the Norman count Hugh" according to Florence

Sven had previously driven his father Harold Bluetooth out of Denmark. .
According to the GND Harold and his fleet / people, had gone to Normandy
and been given land on the Cotentin (Cherbourg peninsular) by Duke
William Longsword. Harold had later come to the aid of Bernard the Dane
(steward of Duke Richard I) when the French and Flemings were trying to
deprive the young Duke Richard of his birthright.
(Which Harold this was is disputed by historians)

Jamie



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InnleggSkrevet: 25 Sep 2004 13:17:08    Tittel: Re: Fitzgerald of Lackagh Svar med Sitat

Brice Clagett wrote [in a GEN-MEDIEVAL post that didn't reach
soc.genealogy.org]:
<<
Isabella Fitzgerald, Baroness Delvin, was a daughter of Sir Thomas
Fitzgerald (c. 1458-1487), of Lackagh Castle, Co. Kildare (which he
built), second brother of the 8th Earl of Kildare, and his wife,
Elizabeth Preston, daughter of Robert Preston, 4th Lord and 1st Viscount
Gormanston, and his wife, Jane Molyneux.
Sitat:


John Higgins pointed out that this represents a correction to Complete
Peerage, vol. 4, p. 173, by making Sir Thomas a brother of Gerald rather
than a younger son. (And looking at the dates, the "son" version does seem
quite impossible.)

If I understand it correctly, it also represents a more radical correction
to the parentage given by CP for Isabella's husband, Richard (Nugent), Baron
Delvin (d. 1537/Cool. CP says that Richard's father Christopher is "said to
have" married Elizabeth (or Anne), da. of Sir Robert Preston, of Gormanston,
that is, of Robert, 1st Viscount Gormanston. CP vol. 14 amends the odd
wording but leaves the sense unchanged.

In contrast, the account above makes Elizabeth Preston the mother-in-law,
not the mother, of Richard.

The CP account of Gormanston is a bit short on dates for the 15th century,
but it does look unlikely that Sir Robert Preston would have been Richard's
grandfather (Richard was summoned to the Irish Parliament in 1486, whereas
Robert Preston's grandson and successor Jenico was 30 in 1532, and left a
son and heir b. c. 1537.)

Chronologically, it does look more feasible Robert Preston to be the
grandfather of Richard's wife Isabella, as in any case she must have been
quite a bit younger than her husband (being the daughter of Sir Thomas
FitzGerald, a younger brother of Gerald the 8th earl, who was born
"apparently after Jan. 1455/6").

Chris Phillips
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InnleggSkrevet: 25 Sep 2004 20:16:35    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i en
meddelelse news:cj3f34$3g9$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk

Sitat:

Exeter was originally the Roman fort / city of Isca, 10 miles up the
river Exe, it controlled the southern part of Britain, the land of the
Dumonii or the West Welsh to the Anglo-Saxons (King Arthur country in
legend). It's first mentioned in the ASC (876) when the Viking *Great
Army* of Guthrum and Halfdan are attacking Alfred the Great's Wessex.
The West Welsh do not appear to have had any aversion to joining with
Guthrum against the West Saxons, Guthrum seems to have tried to
encircle Alfred by sending a fleet to Exeter while attacking from
what would become the *Danelaw*, with a mounted raiding army.
Luckily for Alfred the Viking fleet was wrecked in a storm off
Swanage, 120 ships were lost according to the ASC.

The first Norman connection to Exeter is in 1003, Emma of Normandy
(who /Ethelred the Unready had married to make an alliance with the
Normans) set a French *churl* (ASC) called Hugh over Exeter as reeve
(Florence calls him comitis / count).
When Exeter is attacked by Sven Forkbeard and his son Cnut (both later
kings of England) Hugh appears to have not put up any resistance.
Exeter was lost "through the bad counsel, carelessness and treachery
of the Norman count Hugh" according to Florence

Sven had previously driven his father Harold Bluetooth out of
Denmark. . According to the GND

Gesta Normannorum?



Sitat:
Harold and his fleet / people, had
gone to Normandy and been given land on the Cotentin (Cherbourg
peninsular) by Duke William Longsword.

This is a later legend probably madeup to emphazise the relation of the
Normans
to the ruling houses in Scandinavia.


Harald was according to Scandinavian sources buried in Roskilde brought
there by his men after dying in Wenden among his army and allies.

Even this is very uncertain and no grave has ever been found.



Sitat:
Harold had later come to the
aid of Bernard the Dane (steward of Duke Richard I) when the French
and Flemings were trying to deprive the young Duke Richard of his
birthright. (Which Harold this was is disputed by historians)

It certainly wasn't Harald Bluetooth.

Cheers
Soren Larsen
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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Sep 2004 13:09:43    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"Soren Larsen" <sohela@tiscali.dk> wrote in message
news:2rlr0kF1bm9b8U1@uni-berlin.de...
Sitat:
"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i en
meddelelse news:cj3f34$3g9$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk


Exeter was originally the Roman fort / city of Isca, 10 miles up the
river Exe, it controlled the southern part of Britain, the land of
the
Dumonii or the West Welsh to the Anglo-Saxons (King Arthur country
in
legend). It's first mentioned in the ASC (876) when the Viking
*Great
Army* of Guthrum and Halfdan are attacking Alfred the Great's
Wessex.
The West Welsh do not appear to have had any aversion to joining
with
Guthrum against the West Saxons, Guthrum seems to have tried to
encircle Alfred by sending a fleet to Exeter while attacking from
what would become the *Danelaw*, with a mounted raiding army.
Luckily for Alfred the Viking fleet was wrecked in a storm off
Swanage, 120 ships were lost according to the ASC.

The first Norman connection to Exeter is in 1003, Emma of Normandy
(who /Ethelred the Unready had married to make an alliance with the
Normans) set a French *churl* (ASC) called Hugh over Exeter as reeve
(Florence calls him comitis / count).
When Exeter is attacked by Sven Forkbeard and his son Cnut (both
later
kings of England) Hugh appears to have not put up any resistance.
Exeter was lost "through the bad counsel, carelessness and treachery
of the Norman count Hugh" according to Florence

Sven had previously driven his father Harold Bluetooth out of
Denmark. . According to the GND

Gesta Normannorum?

Yes (GND iii, 1)
9 "How Harold, king of the Danes driven from his kingdom by his son
Svein, arrived with sixty ships in Normandy, was welcomed with fitting
honour by Duke William, and was entrusted with the defence of the county
of the Cotentin by the duke."

This is William of Jumieges not Dudo, btw


Sitat:
Harold and his fleet / people, had
gone to Normandy and been given land on the Cotentin (Cherbourg
peninsular) by Duke William Longsword.

This is a later legend probably madeup to emphazise the relation of
the
Normans
to the ruling houses in Scandinavia.



Sitat:


Harald was according to Scandinavian sources buried in Roskilde
brought
there by his men after dying in Wenden among his army and allies.

Even this is very uncertain and no grave has ever been found.

According to Adam of Bremen and the Encomium Emmae Regina, Harold was
wounded in battle against his son Svein and fled to the Slavs, where he
died within a few days. Harald's death was around 988 according to Adam.
Harald would appear to have been about the same age as Duke Richard I ,
if Adam's and the dating of the GND is right.

Sitat:



Harold had later come to the
aid of Bernard the Dane (steward of Duke Richard I) when the French
and Flemings were trying to deprive the young Duke Richard of his
birthright. (Which Harold this was is disputed by historians)

It certainly wasn't Harald Bluetooth.

Cheers
Soren Larsen


Dudo was commissioned by Duke Richard I, but he does not mention Harald
until this passage of the GND.
(iv 7)
W of J
7 "Meanwhile Bernard the Dane feared that King Louis on his way back
with Duke Hugh (Hugh the Great) would inflict graver sufferings upon the
Normans, so he sent messengers secretly to Harold, king of the Danes,
who was still at Cherbourg, explaining to him that he himself had troops
from the Cotentin and Bessin for an expedition on land and Harold with a
hostile force should organize attacks from the sea on Normandy".
(iv 9)
"Not long afterwards King Harold returned to Denmark after a
recociliation with his son Svein".

The young Richard had been a virtual prisoner at King Louis' court, in
fear of being murdered or at least blinded as he reached his teenage
years.
Obviously a Viking chieftain of some sort came to the aid of Bernard the
Dane after Richard had been spirited away from Louis.
This story very likely comes to Dudo from Richard himself, but it seems
either he or W of J has connected this Harald to Svein.

We know that later, Harald's son Svein wintered in Normandy while
attacking /Ethelred in England, /Ethelred even complained to the Pope
about Norman connivance. This was around the time Richard commissioned
Dudo to write the history of the Norman dukes.

Jamie
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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Sep 2004 14:50:04    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i en
meddelelse news:cj68pp$rse$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Sitat:

"Soren Larsen" <sohela@tiscali.dk> wrote in message
news:2rlr0kF1bm9b8U1@uni-berlin.de...
"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i en
meddelelse news:cj3f34$3g9$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk

snippage


Sitat:

Harald was according to Scandinavian sources buried in Roskilde
brought
there by his men after dying in Wenden among his army and allies.

Even this is very uncertain and no grave has ever been found.

According to Adam of Bremen and the Encomium Emmae Regina, Harold was
wounded in battle against his son Svein and fled to the Slavs, where he
died within a few days.

And Adam continues that the army brought the body back to Denmark
where it was buried in the new church in Roskilde.

This is rather hard to believe since:

A) Haralds army was defeated and in exile so it is difficult to believe
that they freely could return to Roskilde which was an old important likely
royal center.

B) According to Adam was Svein a pagan - thus the rebellion.
So even if the army was allowed to return the burial in a christian
church makes no sense.

We actually know that Svein was christian, so all in all are Adam
not very trustworthy on danish politics at this time.


Sitat:
Harald's death was around 988 according to Adam.

Actually no.

According to Adam died Harald in "the evening of arch bishop
Adaldagss life" Adaldag was bishop from 937-988 so it gives
a bit of leeway on when Harald died. Even 983 where we
have the last confirmation of Harald alive is possible

Sitat:
Harald would appear to have been about the same age as Duke Richard I ,
if Adam's and the dating of the GND is right.

The start of Haralds reign are traditionally dated based on the last mention
of Gorm the old in the sources ie 935-36. But dendro dating of
the wood in Gorms mound show that it was felled in 958.
I would imagine that this can have some implication on the age
of Harald.

The above is almost completely based on Niels Lund's
little book Harald Blåtands død/The death of Harald Bluetooth

snip


Sitat:

The young Richard had been a virtual prisoner at King Louis' court, in
fear of being murdered or at least blinded as he reached his teenage
years.
Obviously a Viking chieftain of some sort came to the aid of Bernard the
Dane after Richard had been spirited away from Louis.
This story very likely comes to Dudo from Richard himself, but it seems
either he or W of J has connected this Harald to Svein.

We know that later, Harald's son Svein wintered in Normandy while
attacking /Ethelred in England, /Ethelred even complained to the Pope
about Norman connivance. This was around the time Richard commissioned
Dudo to write the history of the Norman dukes.

Yup the Normans were busy building a seperate identity probably
over emphasising their connection to Scandinavia.

Cheers
Soren Larsen
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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Sep 2004 19:04:17    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"Soren Larsen" <sohela@tiscali.dk> wrote in message
news:2rns8aF1c7qsrU1@uni-berlin.de...
Sitat:

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i en
meddelelse news:cj68pp$rse$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...

"Soren Larsen" <sohela@tiscali.dk> wrote in message
news:2rlr0kF1bm9b8U1@uni-berlin.de...
"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i
en
meddelelse news:cj3f34$3g9$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk

snippage



Harald was according to Scandinavian sources buried in Roskilde
brought
there by his men after dying in Wenden among his army and allies.

Even this is very uncertain and no grave has ever been found.

According to Adam of Bremen and the Encomium Emmae Regina, Harold
was
wounded in battle against his son Svein and fled to the Slavs, where
he
died within a few days.

The EER is earlier than Adam of Bremen the information is from Emma of
Normandy, Cnut's wife, circa 1035.
Adam's information comes a generation later from Harald's great grandson
Sven Estrithson circa 1070.
Dudo's account was written betweem 996 and 1015

Sitat:

And Adam continues that the army brought the body back to Denmark
where it was buried in the new church in Roskilde.

This is rather hard to believe since:

A) Haralds army was defeated and in exile so it is difficult to
believe
that they freely could return to Roskilde which was an old important
likely
royal center.

B) According to Adam was Svein a pagan - thus the rebellion.
So even if the army was allowed to return the burial in a christian
church makes no sense.

Adam doesn't say Svein was a pagan, he says Svein took counsel with
those his father had compelled to become Christians.
(It was the Otto I, the Saxon, Holy Roman Emperor, who forced
Christianity on Harald)
Adam was getting this information from Harald's great-grandson, he says
the King made no answer when he questioned him on his grandparents
crime. But when he preferred a charge of parricide, Svein Estrithson
said: "That is what we, his posterity, are expiating and what he himself
the parricide, made atonement for in exile".

Sitat:

We actually know that Svein was christian, so all in all are Adam
not very trustworthy on danish politics at this time.


Harald's death was around 988 according to Adam.

Actually no.

According to Adam died Harald in "the evening of arch bishop
Adaldagss life" Adaldag was bishop from 937-988 so it gives
a bit of leeway on when Harald died. Even 983 where we
have the last confirmation of Harald alive is possible

Yes, Adam says Adaldag died in 988 and was buried in the church of
Bremen.

Sitat:

Harald would appear to have been about the same age as Duke Richard
I ,
if Adam's and the dating of the GND is right.

The start of Haralds reign are traditionally dated based on the last
mention
of Gorm the old in the sources ie 935-36. But dendro dating of
the wood in Gorms mound show that it was felled in 958.
I would imagine that this can have some implication on the age
of Harald.

Harald's reign is usually dated 941 - 988, so he couldn't be the Harald,
Bernard the Dane called on in 945, but if Gorm was still king in 958
then he could be.
Do you know of any other reason he could not have been in Normandy in
945?

Sitat:

The above is almost completely based on Niels Lund's
little book Harald Blåtands død/The death of Harald Bluetooth

snip



The young Richard had been a virtual prisoner at King Louis' court,
in
fear of being murdered or at least blinded as he reached his teenage
years.
Obviously a Viking chieftain of some sort came to the aid of Bernard
the
Dane after Richard had been spirited away from Louis.
This story very likely comes to Dudo from Richard himself, but it
seems
either he or W of J has connected this Harald to Svein.

We know that later, Harald's son Svein wintered in Normandy while
attacking /Ethelred in England, /Ethelred even complained to the
Pope
about Norman connivance. This was around the time Richard
commissioned
Dudo to write the history of the Norman dukes.

Yup the Normans were busy building a seperate identity probably
over emphasising their connection to Scandinavia.

Cheers
Soren Larsen



This is assumed to explain away the dating, but if it's possible that
Gorm was still alive and Harald was not yet king, Dudo and the GND may
not have got the wrong Harald.
This may be the only mistake W of J made, the saga of Harald and his son
Svein was probably well known in Normandy, perhaps W of J put two and
two together and made five (Dudo doesn't mention Svein as far as I
know).

Jamie
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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Sep 2004 19:18:08    Tittel: Re: Queen Charlotte Svar med Sitat

Dear Martin,
Thanks for this. I made a mistake, I said Charlotte had two lines and so did
George III,
in fact, each has three lines, Queen Charlotte has three -----not the six,
stated in this site by people who apparently have an axe to grind. The first
thing I was trying to do was find a way of communicating with the people
responsible for these pages. Does anyone have a contact for Mario de Valdes
y Cocom? The URL is at the bottom of this page.

This site is a lot of froth and also contains errors. Why call Philippe the
Good "the Grand Duke" when he wasn't----he was grand and he was a Duke but
he was not a Grand Duke.

I challenge anyone to come up with the quoted six lines between Queen
Charlotte and Margarita de Castro y Sousa.
I have in the ancestor list for Queen Charlotte the numbers 909, 1773 and
2029
showing Margarita de Castro y Sousa. Let the History Department of McGill
University
tell us the other three numbers.

Lets start with the froth, I would love to be told of just one black
community that for generations rallied around pictures of Queen
Charlotte........

Quoting : Queen Charlotte, wife of the English King George III, was directly
descended from Margarita de Castro y Sousa, a black branch of the Portuguese
royal family."

Let us first quibble about "directly descended"----could she indirectly be
descended?
My knowledge of Portuguese families is not that good, I know only her
father, Fernando de Castro, Lord of Monsanto & de Paul de Boquilobe, which
means, in my opinion, no "direct" descending from any branch of the
Portuguese royal family black or otherwise.
Now her mother, Maria de Sousa, yes in the male line she is descended from
Alfonso III, King of Portugal by his Berber mistress Mourana Gil.

As far as I know, and correct me if I am wrong, Berbers are not negroid. My
Dictionary tells: Berber a member of the Hamitic people of Barbary. Barbary
the country of the Berbers in North Africa. Hamite a descendant or supposed
descendant of Ham, son of Noah; a member of a dark-brown long-headed race in
N-E Africa, sometimes understood more widely to cover much of N-Africa.

"The riddle of Queen Charlott's African ancestry was solved as a result of
an earlier investigation into the black magi featured in 15th century
Flemish paintings." Apologies, but what drivel-----Queen Charlotte 1738-1820
what has she got to solve with a picture in the 15th century? First they say
the riddle was solved, but then two art historians "had
suggested".......drivel and hot air. "Enough evidence was accumulated to
"propose" that the models for the black magi were, in all "probability",
members of the Portuguese de Sousa family. De Sousas in the Netherlands? but
Margarita de Castro y Sousa married Jean II de Neufchatel. Perhaps de Sousas
were black----but were they descendants of the Portuguese Royal family?

"Queen Charlotte's Portrait:"
The artists were expected to play down undesirable features but did Sir
Allan Ramsay play UP perhaps? His representation were the most decidedly
African of all paintings of the Queen. African? Is there an African face?
Egyptians are they black? Do they look like all "Africans"? And what about
Moroccans? Is there only one race in Africa? All having a distinct African
look? King Tut does he look like Queen Charlotte? In Somali land I have seen
negroes who looked more blue than black.

In my opinion researcher and writer Mario de Valdes y Cocom is grasping at
straws but presents them as facts.

Why should it be noted that when Sir Ramsay (Sir Ramsay? I thought it was
Sir Allen Ramsay) was commissioned to do his first portrait "he was already,
by marriage, uncle to Dido Elizabeth Lindsay, the black grand niece of Lord
Mansfield. Whatever has this got to do with the negroid features of Queen
Charlotte?

What has a cursory look at the social awareness and political activism at
that level of English society got to do with "the Queen's negroid
physiogomy"and the Abolitionist movement?

Why bring in more froth about the two portraits , formal or otherwise, of
Lord Mansfield's black grand niece? Does it have anything to do with Queen
Charlotte or is it just froth to fill the page?

Why not quote "at least half a dozen quotes of her contemporaries regarding
her negroid features"? Baron Stockmar described her as having a "true
mulatto face". What is a mulatto? The offspring of a Negro and a person of
European stock, in other words a half-caste. We have a quadroon----the
offspring of a mulatto and a white----in other words a quarter cast.
Octaroon, see octoroon the offspring of a quadroon and a person of European
descent, one who has one-eighth Negro blood. Is Stockmar telling us that
either the father or the mother of Queen Charlotte was fully black? I don't
think so.

Then comes the biggest rubbish :
"Perhaps the most literary of these allusions to her African appearance,
however, can be found in the poem penned to her on the occasion of her
wedding to George III and the Coronation celebration that immediately
followed:
Descended from the warlike Vandal race,
She still preserves that title in her face.
etc.
Vandals? One of a fierce people from north-eastern Germany who overran Gaul,
Spain and North Africa, sacked Rome in 455 and so on. Was North Eastern
Germany producing negroes?

Finally it should be noted etc....at the time of Queen Elizabeth II's
coronation, referred to both her Asian and African bloodlines etc. Did this
mention the mulatto Queen Charlotte?
If not, why mention this? I read once that during WWII the British dropped
above Muslim countries a request from King George VI for support from his
Muslim cousins---- but I have never seen a family tree that combines lines
for King George VI and any muslim (except perhaps the present Aga Khan and
he is not black).

Lets get back to the debt of gratitude owed to the History Department of
McGill University.
Margarida de Castro's first number in the ancestor list of Queen Charlotte
is nr.909

The first number of that generation is 512.
512=Johann IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin has 15 lines between him and Queen
Charlotte.
514=Friedrich I of Brandenburg with 88 lines between him and Queen Charlotte
516=Wartislaw IX of Pommern with 24 lines
518=Bogislaw IX of Pommern with 24 lines
520=264= Albrecht Achilles of Brandenburg with 34 lines
522=Wilhelm III of Saxony with 16 lines
534=Albrecht V-VII King of Hungary with 29 lines
and so on and then we come to
909=Margarida de Castro y Sousa with 3 lines

Whether it is 3 or 6, would the multiple descends to so many others not
reduce the influence of the negroid features of Margarida de Castro y
Sousa----if she had them in the first place.

No I am not impressed with that website, lot of hot air but little
substance. They should take it off the Internet----this can only damage
their reputation.
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Hollick" <mhollick@mac.com>
To: <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 3:26 PM
Subject: Queen Charlotte


Sitat:
This was the program to which I referred.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/
royalfamily.html

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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Sep 2004 20:02:16    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

Soren,
I wonder where in Adam of Bremen's book you seen that he refer to Svein as a
Pagan?

Inger E
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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Sep 2004 20:48:16    Tittel: Re: Queen Charlotte / Alessandro de' Medici Svar med Sitat

You're correct, Leo. This `black' line down from
Mourana Gil is a gross misunderstanding of her
ancestry. Moreover all documents about the early
Sousas do Prado never mention anything about their
skin color. The first Sousa do Prado, Martim Afonso
``Chichorro,'' was thus named because he was very
short.

As for African lines into nobility, one possibility is
the descent from Duke Alessandro de' Medici.

fa

--- Leo van de Pas <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
escreveu:
Sitat:
Dear Martin,
Thanks for this. I made a mistake, I said Charlotte
had two lines and so did
George III,
in fact, each has three lines, Queen Charlotte has
three -----not the six,
stated in this site by people who apparently have an
axe to grind. The first
thing I was trying to do was find a way of
communicating with the people
responsible for these pages. Does anyone have a
contact for Mario de Valdes
y Cocom? The URL is at the bottom of this page.

This site is a lot of froth and also contains
errors. Why call Philippe the
Good "the Grand Duke" when he wasn't----he was grand
and he was a Duke but
he was not a Grand Duke.

I challenge anyone to come up with the quoted six
lines between Queen
Charlotte and Margarita de Castro y Sousa.
I have in the ancestor list for Queen Charlotte the
numbers 909, 1773 and
2029
showing Margarita de Castro y Sousa. Let the History
Department of McGill
University
tell us the other three numbers.

Lets start with the froth, I would love to be told
of just one black
community that for generations rallied around
pictures of Queen
Charlotte........

Quoting : Queen Charlotte, wife of the English King
George III, was directly
descended from Margarita de Castro y Sousa, a black
branch of the Portuguese
royal family."

Let us first quibble about "directly
descended"----could she indirectly be
descended?
My knowledge of Portuguese families is not that
good, I know only her
father, Fernando de Castro, Lord of Monsanto & de
Paul de Boquilobe, which
means, in my opinion, no "direct" descending from
any branch of the
Portuguese royal family black or otherwise.
Now her mother, Maria de Sousa, yes in the male line
she is descended from
Alfonso III, King of Portugal by his Berber mistress
Mourana Gil.

As far as I know, and correct me if I am wrong,
Berbers are not negroid. My
Dictionary tells: Berber a member of the Hamitic
people of Barbary. Barbary
the country of the Berbers in North Africa. Hamite a
descendant or supposed
descendant of Ham, son of Noah; a member of a
dark-brown long-headed race in
N-E Africa, sometimes understood more widely to
cover much of N-Africa.

"The riddle of Queen Charlott's African ancestry was
solved as a result of
an earlier investigation into the black magi
featured in 15th century
Flemish paintings." Apologies, but what
drivel-----Queen Charlotte 1738-1820
what has she got to solve with a picture in the 15th
century? First they say
the riddle was solved, but then two art historians
"had
suggested".......drivel and hot air. "Enough
evidence was accumulated to
"propose" that the models for the black magi were,
in all "probability",
members of the Portuguese de Sousa family. De Sousas
in the Netherlands? but
Margarita de Castro y Sousa married Jean II de
Neufchatel. Perhaps de Sousas
were black----but were they descendants of the
Portuguese Royal family?

"Queen Charlotte's Portrait:"
The artists were expected to play down undesirable
features but did Sir
Allan Ramsay play UP perhaps? His representation
were the most decidedly
African of all paintings of the Queen. African? Is
there an African face?
Egyptians are they black? Do they look like all
"Africans"? And what about
Moroccans? Is there only one race in Africa? All
having a distinct African
look? King Tut does he look like Queen Charlotte? In
Somali land I have seen
negroes who looked more blue than black.

In my opinion researcher and writer Mario de Valdes
y Cocom is grasping at
straws but presents them as facts.

Why should it be noted that when Sir Ramsay (Sir
Ramsay? I thought it was
Sir Allen Ramsay) was commissioned to do his first
portrait "he was already,
by marriage, uncle to Dido Elizabeth Lindsay, the
black grand niece of Lord
Mansfield. Whatever has this got to do with the
negroid features of Queen
Charlotte?

What has a cursory look at the social awareness and
political activism at
that level of English society got to do with "the
Queen's negroid
physiogomy"and the Abolitionist movement?

Why bring in more froth about the two portraits ,
formal or otherwise, of
Lord Mansfield's black grand niece? Does it have
anything to do with Queen
Charlotte or is it just froth to fill the page?

Why not quote "at least half a dozen quotes of her
contemporaries regarding
her negroid features"? Baron Stockmar described her
as having a "true
mulatto face". What is a mulatto? The offspring of a
Negro and a person of
European stock, in other words a half-caste. We have
a quadroon----the
offspring of a mulatto and a white----in other words
a quarter cast.
Octaroon, see octoroon the offspring of a quadroon
and a person of European
descent, one who has one-eighth Negro blood. Is
Stockmar telling us that
either the father or the mother of Queen Charlotte
was fully black? I don't
think so.

Then comes the biggest rubbish :
"Perhaps the most literary of these allusions to her
African appearance,
however, can be found in the poem penned to her on
the occasion of her
wedding to George III and the Coronation celebration
that immediately
followed:
Descended from the warlike Vandal race,
She still preserves that title in her face.
etc.
Vandals? One of a fierce people from north-eastern
Germany who overran Gaul,
Spain and North Africa, sacked Rome in 455 and so
on. Was North Eastern
Germany producing negroes?

Finally it should be noted etc....at the time of
Queen Elizabeth II's
coronation, referred to both her Asian and African
bloodlines etc. Did this
mention the mulatto Queen Charlotte?
If not, why mention this? I read once that during
WWII the British dropped
above Muslim countries a request from King George VI
for support from his
Muslim cousins---- but I have never seen a family
tree that combines lines
for King George VI and any muslim (except perhaps
the present Aga Khan and
he is not black).

Lets get back to the debt of gratitude owed to the
History Department of
McGill University.
Margarida de Castro's first number in the ancestor
list of Queen Charlotte
is nr.909

The first number of that generation is 512.
512=Johann IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin has 15 lines
between him and Queen
Charlotte.
514=Friedrich I of Brandenburg with 88 lines between
him and Queen Charlotte
516=Wartislaw IX of Pommern with 24 lines
518=Bogislaw IX of Pommern with 24 lines
520=264= Albrecht Achilles of Brandenburg with 34
lines
522=Wilhelm III of Saxony with 16 lines
534=Albrecht V-VII King of Hungary with 29 lines
and so on and then we come to

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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Sep 2004 21:59:16    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"I E Johansson" <ingerxjohanssonx@telia.com> wrote in message
news:IuD5d.4230$d5.32999@newsb.telia.net...
Sitat:
Soren,
I wonder where in Adam of Bremen's book you seen that he refer to
Svein as a
Pagan?

Inger E



Ermm! Inger? I thought you said not to cross post this to
sci.archaeology.


"I E Johansson" <ingerxjohanssonx@telia.com> wrote in message
news:Mfb5d.4104$d5.32223@newsb.telia.net...
Sitat:
Vaughn, David H and others,
while this thread definitely is interesting, it doesn't seem to be a
question for sci.archaeology do discuss. Does it?

Inger E

snip


If you say so Inger.

Continuing the story of Exeter.

After the battle of Hastings, Harold's mother Gytha took refuge there
while her grandsons went to Ireland to raise troops. In 1067 William was
forced to move against Exeter and besieged it for 18 days, Gytha
escaping to Flanders when Exeter capitulated.
Exeter must have only been a fortified town because William ordered a
castle built there with Baldwin of Meules, the son of Count Gilbert of
Brionne, as Castilian.

There was another revolt in Devon and Cornwall in
1069, Harold's sons had again returned from Ireland but were not to have
the success of the previous year, when apparently William had called out
the fyrd for the first time, as was his right as the elected king by the
witan.
(Brythnoth, their fathers staller had led the fyrd against them and been
killed by them on this occasion).
This time they were met by Brian count of the Bretons and driven off,
Brian then moved on to Exeter, but the Norman garrison had already seen
off the insurrection by the Britons of Devon and Cornwall, Brian mopped
up the remnants

Oderic Vitalis
"Two of the sons of Harold, king of England, mourning the death of their
father and their own defeat, fled to Dermot king of Ireland. Both he and
the princes of his kingdom gave them support, and they landed at Exeter
in command of sixty six ships loaded with armed men. Moving inland and
gaining confidence they began to lay waste the land; and destroying
with fire and sword they did all the harm they could. Forthwith Brian,
son of Eudo count of Brittany, and William Gauldi led an armed force
against them, and in the course of two battles fought in one day reduced
this fearful multitude to so few that the survivors escaped in two light
skiffs, and filled Ireland with mourning".

Jamie
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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Sep 2004 22:11:10    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

Jamie,
I have no problem with your story-writing. I haven't checked details so you
can be right BUT
a) found it in sci.archaeology, thought I removed it in my answer/question.
b) I have read Adam of Bremen over and over - not only the Swedish version I
have at home. Never struck me that Adam might have thought Svein to be a
Pagan. On the contrary as Svein and Adam in the essays of several Professors
of History, Linguistic and Religion always have been presented as friendly
and Adam didn't like Pagans.... so my question to Soren stands - where in
Adam is Svein said to be Pagan?

Inger E
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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Sep 2004 23:09:33    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i en
meddelelse news:cj6t1v$aj5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Sitat:

"Soren Larsen" <sohela@tiscali.dk> wrote in message
news:2rns8aF1c7qsrU1@uni-berlin.de...

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i en
meddelelse news:cj68pp$rse$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...

"Soren Larsen" <sohela@tiscali.dk> wrote in message
news:2rlr0kF1bm9b8U1@uni-berlin.de...
"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i
en
meddelelse news:cj3f34$3g9$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk

snippage



Harald was according to Scandinavian sources buried in Roskilde
brought
there by his men after dying in Wenden among his army and allies.

Even this is very uncertain and no grave has ever been found.

According to Adam of Bremen and the Encomium Emmae Regina, Harold
was
wounded in battle against his son Svein and fled to the Slavs, where
he
died within a few days.

The EER is earlier than Adam of Bremen the information is from Emma of
Normandy, Cnut's wife, circa 1035.
Adam's information comes a generation later from Harald's great grandson
Sven Estrithson circa 1070.
Dudo's account was written betweem 996 and 1015


Sure but both EER and Adam had inside family sources.


Sitat:


And Adam continues that the army brought the body back to Denmark
where it was buried in the new church in Roskilde.

This is rather hard to believe since:

A) Haralds army was defeated and in exile so it is difficult to
believe
that they freely could return to Roskilde which was an old important
likely
royal center.

B) According to Adam was Svein a pagan - thus the rebellion.
So even if the army was allowed to return the burial in a christian
church makes no sense.

Adam doesn't say Svein was a pagan, he says Svein took counsel with
those his father had compelled to become Christians.

Immidiately after this passage comes:

Suddenly the Danes makes a conspiracy, denounces their Christian
faith and makes Svein king.

And this a bit later

2nd book, 29: "at the time when Svein started his great persecution
of the christians in the land of the Danes"

I suppose you are working from an abridged version but Inger
must be blind.



Sitat:
(It was the Otto I, the Saxon, Holy Roman Emperor, who forced
Christianity on Harald)

Actually no.

It was Otto II who was at war with Denmark and he was stopped
in Slesvig.

Another example of Adam's unreliability.



Sitat:
Adam was getting this information from Harald's great-grandson, he says
the King made no answer when he questioned him on his grandparents
crime. But when he preferred a charge of parricide, Svein Estrithson
said: "That is what we, his posterity, are expiating and what he himself
the parricide, made atonement for in exile".


We actually know that Svein was christian, so all in all are Adam
not very trustworthy on danish politics at this time.


Harald's death was around 988 according to Adam.

Actually no.

According to Adam died Harald in "the evening of arch bishop
Adaldagss life" Adaldag was bishop from 937-988 so it gives
a bit of leeway on when Harald died. Even 983 where we
have the last confirmation of Harald alive is possible

Yes, Adam says Adaldag died in 988 and was buried in the church of
Bremen.


Harald would appear to have been about the same age as Duke Richard
I ,
if Adam's and the dating of the GND is right.

The start of Haralds reign are traditionally dated based on the last
mention
of Gorm the old in the sources ie 935-36. But dendro dating of
the wood in Gorms mound show that it was felled in 958.
I would imagine that this can have some implication on the age
of Harald.

Harald's reign is usually dated 941 - 988, so he couldn't be the Harald,
Bernard the Dane called on in 945, but if Gorm was still king in 958
then he could be.
Do you know of any other reason he could not have been in Normandy in
945?

Yup

The Danes were fighting in Saxony in the 40's and Harald would
have been there if was at all fit to send abroad.

Cheers
Soren Larsen
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InnleggSkrevet: 26 Sep 2004 23:12:50    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"I E Johansson" <ingerxjohanssonx@telia.com> skrev i en meddelelse
news:ynF5d.104305$dP1.380153@newsc.telia.net...


Sitat:
b) I have read Adam of Bremen over and over - not only the Swedish version
I
have at home. Never struck me that Adam might have thought Svein to be a
Pagan. On the contrary as Svein and Adam in the essays of several
Professors
of History, Linguistic and Religion always have been presented as friendly

You must be joking or confusing Svein Haraldsson with Svein Estrihsson

Svein H is the archvillain in Adams version of history


Sitat:
and Adam didn't like Pagans.... so my question to Soren stands - where in
Adam is Svein said to be Pagan?

See my ansver to Jamie

Soren Larsen
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InnleggSkrevet: 27 Sep 2004 01:04:24    Tittel: Re: Queen Charlotte / Alessandro de' Medici Svar med Sitat

Dear Chico
Many thanks for this. Alessandro de'Medici, of course, is not an ancestor of
Queen Charlotte and on my website is a pretty interesting portrait of
Alessandro, and there are two portraits of Queen Charlotte as well. I would
not care if Queen Charlotte was black but I do care when people try to make
a name for themselves by distorting facts.
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: "Francisco Antonio Doria" <franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: Queen Charlotte / Alessandro de' Medici


Sitat:

You're correct, Leo. This `black' line down from
Mourana Gil is a gross misunderstanding of her
ancestry. Moreover all documents about the early
Sousas do Prado never mention anything about their
skin color. The first Sousa do Prado, Martim Afonso
``Chichorro,'' was thus named because he was very
short.

As for African lines into nobility, one possibility is
the descent from Duke Alessandro de' Medici.

fa

--- Leo van de Pas <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
escreveu:
Dear Martin,
Thanks for this. I made a mistake, I said Charlotte
had two lines and so did
George III,
in fact, each has three lines, Queen Charlotte has
three -----not the six,
stated in this site by people who apparently have an
axe to grind. The first
thing I was trying to do was find a way of
communicating with the people
responsible for these pages. Does anyone have a
contact for Mario de Valdes
y Cocom? The URL is at the bottom of this page.

This site is a lot of froth and also contains
errors. Why call Philippe the
Good "the Grand Duke" when he wasn't----he was grand
and he was a Duke but
he was not a Grand Duke.

I challenge anyone to come up with the quoted six
lines between Queen
Charlotte and Margarita de Castro y Sousa.
I have in the ancestor list for Queen Charlotte the
numbers 909, 1773 and
2029
showing Margarita de Castro y Sousa. Let the History
Department of McGill
University
tell us the other three numbers.

Lets start with the froth, I would love to be told
of just one black
community that for generations rallied around
pictures of Queen
Charlotte........

Quoting : Queen Charlotte, wife of the English King
George III, was directly
descended from Margarita de Castro y Sousa, a black
branch of the Portuguese
royal family."

Let us first quibble about "directly
descended"----could she indirectly be
descended?
My knowledge of Portuguese families is not that
good, I know only her
father, Fernando de Castro, Lord of Monsanto & de
Paul de Boquilobe, which
means, in my opinion, no "direct" descending from
any branch of the
Portuguese royal family black or otherwise.
Now her mother, Maria de Sousa, yes in the male line
she is descended from
Alfonso III, King of Portugal by his Berber mistress
Mourana Gil.

As far as I know, and correct me if I am wrong,
Berbers are not negroid. My
Dictionary tells: Berber a member of the Hamitic
people of Barbary. Barbary
the country of the Berbers in North Africa. Hamite a
descendant or supposed
descendant of Ham, son of Noah; a member of a
dark-brown long-headed race in
N-E Africa, sometimes understood more widely to
cover much of N-Africa.

"The riddle of Queen Charlott's African ancestry was
solved as a result of
an earlier investigation into the black magi
featured in 15th century
Flemish paintings." Apologies, but what
drivel-----Queen Charlotte 1738-1820
what has she got to solve with a picture in the 15th
century? First they say
the riddle was solved, but then two art historians
"had
suggested".......drivel and hot air. "Enough
evidence was accumulated to
"propose" that the models for the black magi were,
in all "probability",
members of the Portuguese de Sousa family. De Sousas
in the Netherlands? but
Margarita de Castro y Sousa married Jean II de
Neufchatel. Perhaps de Sousas
were black----but were they descendants of the
Portuguese Royal family?

"Queen Charlotte's Portrait:"
The artists were expected to play down undesirable
features but did Sir
Allan Ramsay play UP perhaps? His representation
were the most decidedly
African of all paintings of the Queen. African? Is
there an African face?
Egyptians are they black? Do they look like all
"Africans"? And what about
Moroccans? Is there only one race in Africa? All
having a distinct African
look? King Tut does he look like Queen Charlotte? In
Somali land I have seen
negroes who looked more blue than black.

In my opinion researcher and writer Mario de Valdes
y Cocom is grasping at
straws but presents them as facts.

Why should it be noted that when Sir Ramsay (Sir
Ramsay? I thought it was
Sir Allen Ramsay) was commissioned to do his first
portrait "he was already,
by marriage, uncle to Dido Elizabeth Lindsay, the
black grand niece of Lord
Mansfield. Whatever has this got to do with the
negroid features of Queen
Charlotte?

What has a cursory look at the social awareness and
political activism at
that level of English society got to do with "the
Queen's negroid
physiogomy"and the Abolitionist movement?

Why bring in more froth about the two portraits ,
formal or otherwise, of
Lord Mansfield's black grand niece? Does it have
anything to do with Queen
Charlotte or is it just froth to fill the page?

Why not quote "at least half a dozen quotes of her
contemporaries regarding
her negroid features"? Baron Stockmar described her
as having a "true
mulatto face". What is a mulatto? The offspring of a
Negro and a person of
European stock, in other words a half-caste. We have
a quadroon----the
offspring of a mulatto and a white----in other words
a quarter cast.
Octaroon, see octoroon the offspring of a quadroon
and a person of European
descent, one who has one-eighth Negro blood. Is
Stockmar telling us that
either the father or the mother of Queen Charlotte
was fully black? I don't
think so.

Then comes the biggest rubbish :
"Perhaps the most literary of these allusions to her
African appearance,
however, can be found in the poem penned to her on
the occasion of her
wedding to George III and the Coronation celebration
that immediately
followed:
Descended from the warlike Vandal race,
She still preserves that title in her face.
etc.
Vandals? One of a fierce people from north-eastern
Germany who overran Gaul,
Spain and North Africa, sacked Rome in 455 and so
on. Was North Eastern
Germany producing negroes?

Finally it should be noted etc....at the time of
Queen Elizabeth II's
coronation, referred to both her Asian and African
bloodlines etc. Did this
mention the mulatto Queen Charlotte?
If not, why mention this? I read once that during
WWII the British dropped
above Muslim countries a request from King George VI
for support from his
Muslim cousins---- but I have never seen a family
tree that combines lines
for King George VI and any muslim (except perhaps
the present Aga Khan and
he is not black).

Lets get back to the debt of gratitude owed to the
History Department of
McGill University.
Margarida de Castro's first number in the ancestor
list of Queen Charlotte
is nr.909

The first number of that generation is 512.
512=Johann IV of Mecklenburg-Schwerin has 15 lines
between him and Queen
Charlotte.
514=Friedrich I of Brandenburg with 88 lines between
him and Queen Charlotte
516=Wartislaw IX of Pommern with 24 lines
518=Bogislaw IX of Pommern with 24 lines
520=264= Albrecht Achilles of Brandenburg with 34
lines
522=Wilhelm III of Saxony with 16 lines
534=Albrecht V-VII King of Hungary with 29 lines
and so on and then we come to

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InnleggSkrevet: 27 Sep 2004 13:02:28    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"I E Johansson" <ingerxjohanssonx@telia.com> wrote in message news:<Mfb5d.4104$d5.32223@newsb.telia.net>...
Sitat:
Vaughn, David H and others,
while this thread definitely is interesting, it doesn't seem to be a
question for sci.archaeology do discuss. Does it?

Inger E

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i
meddelandet news:cj3f34$3g9$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

"David Holiman" <dcholiman@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:4315ddc6.0409240830.1170c465@posting.google.com...
"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in
message news:<civ0kp$ebn$2@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>...
"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:xDC4d.553$H81.187@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

snip


David Spencer Hines, I wish to know more of this Duke of Essex
that
was at
Agincourt - I call you out Sir - explain yourself to my
satisfaction,
or I shall
have to push the matter further!
Cheers
Martin



I think Sweyne was the first Dook of Earl, after the conquest, pre
conquest Harold and his cousin Beorn then his brothers Gyrth and
Leofwine were earldormen of East Anglia rather than just Essex.
Sweyne's son Robert (fitz- Sweyne) lost out on the earldom to
Geoffrey
de Mandeville in the struggle between Stephen and Matilda, quite why
I
don't know. His son, Henry of Essex (fitz-Robert) was a favourite of
Henry II, possibly his staller (standard bearer) and one of the
largest
land owners in England. On campaign in Wales with Henry II, H
fitz-Robert bolted from an ambush throwing away the standard, Henry
does
not appear to have held this against him, but six years later one of
his
enemies, Robert de Montfort Earl of Leicester accused him of
cowardice
over the episode and a challenge of trial by combat was issued,
although
the dispute between them was nothing to do with the Welsh affair.
Henry of Essex lost and was stripped of all his lands, but his life
was
spared by the King and he spent the remainder of his life as a monk
at
Reading.

Jamie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Goodness, they were REALLY SERIOUS about being
brave and showing no cowardice. My question pertains
not to Henry II but to the first Duke of Exeter.
Was Exeter the manor which is now called Exeter the
publick school ? We Americans hear about Eton,
Exeter, Harrow, and others. Any connection here ?

DAVID H (of the V & G coalition against the Loon
fraternity)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Exeter was originally the Roman fort / city of Isca, 10 miles up the
river Exe, it controlled the southern part of Britain, the land of the
Dumonii or the West Welsh to the Anglo-Saxons (King Arthur country in
legend). It's first mentioned in the ASC (876) when the Viking *Great
Army* of Guthrum and Halfdan are attacking Alfred the Great's Wessex.
The West Welsh do not appear to have had any aversion to joining with
Guthrum against the West Saxons, Guthrum seems to have tried to encircle
Alfred by sending a fleet to Exeter while attacking from what would
become the *Danelaw*, with a mounted raiding army.
Luckily for Alfred the Viking fleet was wrecked in a storm off Swanage,
120 ships were lost according to the ASC.

The first Norman connection to Exeter is in 1003, Emma of Normandy (who
/Ethelred the Unready had married to make an alliance with the Normans)
set a French *churl* (ASC) called Hugh over Exeter as reeve (Florence
calls him comitis / count).
When Exeter is attacked by Sven Forkbeard and his son Cnut (both later
kings of England) Hugh appears to have not put up any resistance.
Exeter was lost "through the bad counsel, carelessness and treachery of
the Norman count Hugh" according to Florence

Sven had previously driven his father Harold Bluetooth out of Denmark. .
According to the GND Harold and his fleet / people, had gone to Normandy
and been given land on the Cotentin (Cherbourg peninsular) by Duke
William Longsword. Harold had later come to the aid of Bernard the Dane
(steward of Duke Richard I) when the French and Flemings were trying to
deprive the young Duke Richard of his birthright.
(Which Harold this was is disputed by historians)

Jamie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have covered a lot of ground here, and

I will have to make another list in order to
grasp your thrust here:
1. Exeter (the school) is built on the ruins of a
Roman fort on the River Exe in Wales.
2. Catholic King Alfred was attacked (876) by
Guthrum and Halfdan of the pagan
Danelaw near here but the Danes could not
encircle Alfred on account of the Viking fleet
being sunk by a storm off Swanage, Wales.
3. Over a century later, Exeter is back in the news
because Ethelred the Unready married (1003)Emma of
Normandie to seal a treaty with the Normans. This
treaty is nullified when Sven Forkbeard and his
son Canute (Cnut anglicized) seize Exeter outpost.
4. In 1000-1006, England was basically ruled by
Catholic Danes and the people were speaking
Old English, meaning a combination of AS and ON.
Sitat:
DAVID H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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InnleggSkrevet: 27 Sep 2004 14:10:44    Tittel: Re: Queen Charlotte / Alessandro de' Medici Svar med Sitat

Dear Leo,

As far as I can tell the Sousas do Prado had no
African ancestry in their origins. But Alessandro de'
Medici is obviously the son of a former African slave
or servant girl; it is enough to look as any of his
portraits.

chico

--- Leo van de Pas <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au>
escreveu:
Sitat:
Dear Chico
Many thanks for this. Alessandro de'Medici, of
course, is not an ancestor of
Queen Charlotte and on my website is a pretty
interesting portrait of
Alessandro, and there are two portraits of Queen
Charlotte as well. I would
not care if Queen Charlotte was black but I do care
when people try to make
a name for themselves by distorting facts.
Leo


----- Original Message -----
From: "Francisco Antonio Doria"
franciscoantoniodoria@yahoo.com.br
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 1:52 AM
Subject: Re: Queen Charlotte / Alessandro de' Medici



You're correct, Leo. This `black' line down from
Mourana Gil is a gross misunderstanding of her
ancestry. Moreover all documents about the early
Sousas do Prado never mention anything about their
skin color. The first Sousa do Prado, Martim
Afonso
``Chichorro,'' was thus named because he was very
short.

As for African lines into nobility, one
possibility is
the descent from Duke Alessandro de' Medici.

fa

--- Leo van de Pas <leovdpas@netspeed.com.au
escreveu:
Dear Martin,
Thanks for this. I made a mistake, I said
Charlotte
had two lines and so did
George III,
in fact, each has three lines, Queen Charlotte
has
three -----not the six,
stated in this site by people who apparently
have an
axe to grind. The first
thing I was trying to do was find a way of
communicating with the people
responsible for these pages. Does anyone have a
contact for Mario de Valdes
y Cocom? The URL is at the bottom of this page.

This site is a lot of froth and also contains
errors. Why call Philippe the
Good "the Grand Duke" when he wasn't----he was
grand
and he was a Duke but
he was not a Grand Duke.

I challenge anyone to come up with the quoted
six
lines between Queen
Charlotte and Margarita de Castro y Sousa.
I have in the ancestor list for Queen Charlotte
the
numbers 909, 1773 and
2029
showing Margarita de Castro y Sousa. Let the
History
Department of McGill
University
tell us the other three numbers.

Lets start with the froth, I would love to be
told
of just one black
community that for generations rallied around
pictures of Queen
Charlotte........

Quoting : Queen Charlotte, wife of the English
King
George III, was directly
descended from Margarita de Castro y Sousa, a
black
branch of the Portuguese
royal family."

Let us first quibble about "directly
descended"----could she indirectly be
descended?
My knowledge of Portuguese families is not that
good, I know only her
father, Fernando de Castro, Lord of Monsanto &
de
Paul de Boquilobe, which
means, in my opinion, no "direct" descending
from
any branch of the
Portuguese royal family black or otherwise.
Now her mother, Maria de Sousa, yes in the male
line
she is descended from
Alfonso III, King of Portugal by his Berber
mistress
Mourana Gil.

As far as I know, and correct me if I am wrong,
Berbers are not negroid. My
Dictionary tells: Berber a member of the Hamitic
people of Barbary. Barbary
the country of the Berbers in North Africa.
Hamite a
descendant or supposed
descendant of Ham, son of Noah; a member of a
dark-brown long-headed race in
N-E Africa, sometimes understood more widely to
cover much of N-Africa.

"The riddle of Queen Charlott's African ancestry
was
solved as a result of
an earlier investigation into the black magi
featured in 15th century
Flemish paintings." Apologies, but what
drivel-----Queen Charlotte 1738-1820
what has she got to solve with a picture in the
15th
century? First they say
the riddle was solved, but then two art
historians
"had
suggested".......drivel and hot air. "Enough
evidence was accumulated to
"propose" that the models for the black magi
were,
in all "probability",
members of the Portuguese de Sousa family. De
Sousas
in the Netherlands? but
Margarita de Castro y Sousa married Jean II de
Neufchatel. Perhaps de Sousas
were black----but were they descendants of the
Portuguese Royal family?

"Queen Charlotte's Portrait:"
The artists were expected to play down
undesirable
features but did Sir
Allan Ramsay play UP perhaps? His representation
were the most decidedly
African of all paintings of the Queen. African?
Is
there an African face?
Egyptians are they black? Do they look like all
"Africans"? And what about
Moroccans? Is there only one race in Africa? All
having a distinct African
look? King Tut does he look like Queen
Charlotte? In
Somali land I have seen
negroes who looked more blue than black.

In my opinion researcher and writer Mario de
Valdes
y Cocom is grasping at
straws but presents them as facts.

Why should it be noted that when Sir Ramsay (Sir
Ramsay? I thought it was
Sir Allen Ramsay) was commissioned to do his
first
portrait "he was already,
by marriage, uncle to Dido Elizabeth Lindsay,
the
black grand niece of Lord
Mansfield. Whatever has this got to do with the
negroid features of Queen
Charlotte?

What has a cursory look at the social awareness
and
political activism at
that level of English society got to do with
"the
Queen's negroid
physiogomy"and the Abolitionist movement?

Why bring in more froth about the two portraits
,
formal or otherwise, of
Lord Mansfield's black grand niece? Does it have
anything to do with Queen
Charlotte or is it just froth to fill the page?

Why not quote "at least half a dozen quotes of
her

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InnleggSkrevet: 27 Sep 2004 19:08:11    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"David Holiman" <dcholiman@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:4315ddc6.0409270302.42f2f0e8@posting.google.com...
Sitat:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

snip

Sitat:
You have covered a lot of ground here, and
I will have to make another list in order to
grasp your thrust here:
1. Exeter (the school) is built on the ruins of a
Roman fort on the River Exe in Wales.

Devon (West Welsh)

Sitat:
2. Catholic King Alfred was attacked (876) by
Guthrum and Halfdan of the pagan
Danelaw near here but the Danes could not
encircle Alfred on account of the Viking fleet
being sunk by a storm off Swanage, Wales.

Dorset (West Saxon)

When Alfred agreed the Danelaw treaty with Guthrum, he (Guthrum) became
a Christian and took the AS name Athelstan.

Sitat:
3. Over a century later, Exeter is back in the news
because Ethelred the Unready married (1003)Emma of
Normandie to seal a treaty with the Normans. This
treaty is nullified when Sven Forkbeard and his
son Canute (Cnut anglicized) seize Exeter outpost.

Nope, 1013 when Svein forced /Ethelred to seek refuge in Normandy, and
finally in 1016 when Cnut defeated Edmund Ironside at Ashingdon (Essex)
and married Emma.
Emma had two sons and two husbands who were kings of England but Edmund
wasn't one of them.

Sitat:
4. In 1000-1006, England was basically ruled by
Catholic Danes and the people were speaking
Old English, meaning a combination of AS and ON.
DAVID H
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Possibly but more likely the AS were still speaking AS and the ON were
still speaking ON, a hundred years later the two languages had started
to merge into Middle English.

Jamie
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InnleggSkrevet: 27 Sep 2004 21:11:12    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"Soren Larsen" <sohela@tiscali.dk> wrote in message
news:2ropi3F1ca7riU1@uni-berlin.de...
Sitat:

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i en
meddelelse news:cj6t1v$aj5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...

snip


Sitat:
The EER is earlier than Adam of Bremen the information is from Emma
of
Normandy, Cnut's wife, circa 1035.
Adam's information comes a generation later from Harald's great
grandson
Sven Estrithson circa 1070.
Dudo's account was written betweem 996 and 1015


Sure but both EER and Adam had inside family sources.


Sitat:




And Adam continues that the army brought the body back to Denmark
where it was buried in the new church in Roskilde.

This is rather hard to believe since:

A) Haralds army was defeated and in exile so it is difficult to
believe
that they freely could return to Roskilde which was an old
important
likely
royal center.

B) According to Adam was Svein a pagan - thus the rebellion.
So even if the army was allowed to return the burial in a christian
church makes no sense.

Adam doesn't say Svein was a pagan, he says Svein took counsel with
those his father had compelled to become Christians.

Immidiately after this passage comes:

Suddenly the Danes makes a conspiracy, denounces their Christian
faith and makes Svein king.

And this a bit later

2nd book, 29: "at the time when Svein started his great persecution
of the christians in the land of the Danes"

I suppose you are working from an abridged version but Inger
must be blind.


No I have the full version, but you are right he does say Svein was a
pagan


Sitat:
(It was the Otto I, the Saxon, Holy Roman Emperor, who forced
Christianity on Harald)

Actually no.

It was Otto II who was at war with Denmark and he was stopped
in Slesvig.

Another example of Adam's unreliability.


Yes he does have the wrong Otto.

Sitat:



Adam was getting this information from Harald's great-grandson, he
says
the King made no answer when he questioned him on his grandparents
crime. But when he preferred a charge of parricide, Svein Estrithson
said: "That is what we, his posterity, are expiating and what he
himself
the parricide, made atonement for in exile".


We actually know that Svein was christian, so all in all are Adam
not very trustworthy on danish politics at this time.


Harald's death was around 988 according to Adam.

Actually no.

According to Adam died Harald in "the evening of arch bishop
Adaldagss life" Adaldag was bishop from 937-988 so it gives
a bit of leeway on when Harald died. Even 983 where we
have the last confirmation of Harald alive is possible

Yes, Adam says Adaldag died in 988 and was buried in the church of
Bremen.


Harald would appear to have been about the same age as Duke
Richard
I ,
if Adam's and the dating of the GND is right.

The start of Haralds reign are traditionally dated based on the
last
mention
of Gorm the old in the sources ie 935-36. But dendro dating of
the wood in Gorms mound show that it was felled in 958.
I would imagine that this can have some implication on the age
of Harald.

Harald's reign is usually dated 941 - 988, so he couldn't be the
Harald,
Bernard the Dane called on in 945, but if Gorm was still king in 958
then he could be.
Do you know of any other reason he could not have been in Normandy
in
945?

Yup

The Danes were fighting in Saxony in the 40's and Harald would
have been there if was at all fit to send abroad.

Cheers
Soren Larsen


This is Otto I.
King Louis of France was married to Otto's sister Gerberga, she asked
her brother for support (in 946 according to Flodoard) Otto came with an
army and joined Louis against the Normans, Harald had returned to
Denmark by this time (according to the GND).

Jamie
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InnleggSkrevet: 28 Sep 2004 01:38:48    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

Bingo!

You've got it right.

Of course, I pointed out these historical facts several days ago.

Thomas Beaufort, Henry V's [half] Uncle, was not at the Battle of
Agincourt but Captain of Harfleur and he was not yet Duke of Exeter.

Poetic License on Will Shakespeare's part -- and it certainly works
dramatically.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"James C. Woodard" <gwyddon@arac.netNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:SL-dnUzY8JtQS8XcRVn-pA@comcast.com...

| "Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in

| news:aw44d.409$CS6.335@newsfe5-win.ntli.net:
|
| > When was this title bestowed, and upon whom?
|
| First creation: 29 Sept. 1397, John de Holand
| Second creation: 18 Nov. 1416, Thomas Beaufort
| Third creation: 6 Jan. 1443/4, John Holand
|
|
| >I don't remember Henry V
| > (Brannaugh or Olivier) even mentioning him at Agincourt?
| >
| >
|
| from Henry V, the St. Crispin's Day speech at the outset of the
| battle of Agincourt.
| "Familiar in his mouth as household words,
| Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
| Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,..."
|
| So it seems that Will put the words in Hal's mouth, despite the fact
| that Thomas Beaufort was not at Agincourt, but holding Harfleur, and
| was not yet Duke of Exeter. Hey, it made good theatre, right?
|
| --
| James C. Woodard
| "Too many laws make scofflaws of all"
| http://home.comcast.net/~gwyddon/
| gwyddon@comcast.net
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InnleggSkrevet: 28 Sep 2004 03:58:44    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

Here it is again:

DSH
------------------

John Holand [1395/6-1447], later Constable Of The Tower [1420] and 3rd
Duke of Exeter [6 Jan 1443/4] certainly WAS at the Siege of Harfleur and
the Battle of Agincourt on 25 October 1415.

Thomas Beaufort was ALSO at the Siege of Harfleur, took the surrender of
the city on 22 Sep 1415 and commanded the garrison there AFTER the
surrender.

Thomas did NOT fight in the Battle of Agincourt on 25 October 1415. He
was not YET Duke of Exeter either. He became the 2nd Duke of Exeter
[for life], the first duke of the second creation, on 18 November 1416.

Today we have a Marquess of Exeter -- but no Duke of Exeter.

Henry Holand [1430-1475], the 4th Duke of Exeter, was the last Duke of
Exeter. He was born in the Tower of London on 27 Jun 1430 and died
mysteriously, drowned, between Calais and Dover.

Thomas Beaufort did NOT fight in the Battle of Agincourt on 25 October
1415. He was not YET Duke of Exeter either. He became the 2nd Duke of
Exeter [for life], the first duke of the second creation, on 18 November
1416.

Therefore, at the time of the Battle of Agincourt [25 October 1415]
there was no Duke of Exeter.

'Nuff Said.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor
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InnleggSkrevet: 28 Sep 2004 05:13:17    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in
news:aw44d.409$CS6.335@newsfe5-win.ntli.net:

Sitat:
When was this title bestowed, and upon whom?

First creation: 29 Sept. 1397, John de Holand
Second creation: 18 Nov. 1416, Thomas Beaufort
Third creation: 6 Jan. 1443/4, John Holand


Sitat:
I don't remember Henry V
(Brannaugh or Olivier) even mentioning him at Agincourt?



from Henry V, the St. Crispin's Day speech at the outset of the
battle of Agincourt.
"Familiar in his mouth as household words,
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,..."

So it seems that Will put the words in Hal's mouth, despite the fact
that Thomas Beaufort was not at Agincourt, but holding Harfleur, and
was not yet Duke of Exeter. Hey, it made good theatre, right?



--
James C. Woodard
"Too many laws make scofflaws of all"
http://home.comcast.net/~gwyddon/
gwyddon@comcast.net
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InnleggSkrevet: 28 Sep 2004 14:57:40    Tittel: Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL-D Digest V04 #783: Simon de Senlis and Maud Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 27/09/04 7:05:50 PM Douglas Richardson wrote:
<snip>

Sitat:
In her flagship genealogical chart on the "Comital Family of Boulogne"
found on pages 290-291, Ms. Tanner states that Countess Judith (niece
of William the Conqueror) and her husband, Earl Waltheof, had two
daughters, Maud (called Matilda by Tanner) [wife successively of Simon
de Senlis, and David, King of Scotland], and Judith [wife of Ralph de
Tosny].


<snip>
Thanks Doug.
Am I right in thinking that Simon de Senlis, Earl of Huntingdon and
Northampton, and his wife Maud had a daughter Maud who married Robert de Dunmow and had
by him a son Walter Fitzrobert de Clare?
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InnleggSkrevet: 28 Sep 2004 22:20:23    Tittel: Re: Somerled's mother-in-law Svar med Sitat

Monday, 27 September, 2004


Dear Brice (and Stewart, et al.),

That's a very interesting find, and source, indeed.

The back-and-forth on the issue has been interesting, but from
my notes I'm not sure that there's really a disagreement per se:

1. As I have it in my notes from Orkneyinga Saga (trans.
H. Paulsson), Ragnhild was the daughter of Olaf 'Tit-bit'
or 'Morsel' by Ingeborg, daughter of Jarl Haakon.

2. As I recall, Stewart Baldwin has cited sources (Manx I
believe) the indicate Ragnhild's mother was a concubine,
which you also cite.

It is certainly possible, assuming that Ingeborg was in fact
married to Olaf 'Tit-bit' [not sure that this is an established
fact], that she had previously been a concubine. Ingeborg was the
daughter of Jarl Haakon, but she was not legitimate (Orkneyinga
Saga, chapter 53 says specifically she was the illegitimate daughter
of Jarl Haakon by Helga Moddansdottir). Being the 'base' daughter
of a Jarl, she may well have been originally taken as a concubine
by Olaf [meaning that the Manx source is correct] while having been
Haakon's daughter.

Cheers,

John
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InnleggSkrevet: 28 Sep 2004 22:27:45    Tittel: Re: CP Addition: Margaret, wife of (1) Sir John Deiville and Svar med Sitat

[2nd attempt to post to SGM]


Monday, 27 September, 2004


Dear Rosie,

Many thanks (and a load of anti-CTS serum) for the sleuthing, and
typography. A great deal of food for thought, and towards possibly
solving this Deivillish problem.

While having limited time to read, and try to digest, what you've
forwarded, I noted the following portion, from VCH II:101 (Thornton
Bridge):


" In 1284-5 John Deyvill son of John was holding was holding 6
carucates in Cundall and Thornton Bridge [Baildon op.cit 146; Kirkby's
Inquest (Surt. Soc.), 184.]. The younger John seems to have had two
daughters, Elizabeth married to Alexander de Ledes and margaret, whose
husband is not known [Yorks. D. (Yorks. Arch. Soc.), 202]. In 1323 he
granted the manors of Cundall and Thornton Bridge to Alexander de Leeds and
Elizabeth, and gave notice to his tenants that their services were due to
Alexander [Hist. MSSS. Com. Rep. v, App. i, 332]. Twelve years later both
manors were in the possession of Boniface de Leeds, probably son of
Alexander. He granted to Alexander his son and Margaret his wife two parts
of the manors of Thornton and Cundall, and the reversion of the third part,
which was held at the time by Adam de Everingham and his wife as her dower
[Feet of F. Yorks. 8 Edw III, no.2].
Alexander and Margaret de Leeds had a daughter and heiress Elizabeth
[Wrottesley, Ped. from the Plea R. 104], who married as her first husband
Ralph de Nevill, a younger son of Ralph Lord Nevill of Raby. He succeeded to
the manors held by Alexander de Leeds and became the founder of the family
known as the Nevills of Thornton Bridge."
Source: VCH Yorkshire North Riding, v.2 p.101


The following items of interest (and problem) were noted:

1. This account indicates that John Deiville, son of John was already
holding the Cundall and Thornton lands in 1284-5. Now, this John
was born no earlier than 21 July 1274 [he was underage at that
date in 1295: CP IV:132, note (m), cites Patent Roll, 23 Edw. I,
m12d.], and likely later than that date. This means he ("John son
of John") was no older than 11 years of age when shown as the
tenant of those lands. We know these did not come to him by
marriage: therefore, we can surmise that Sir John Deiville, the
father, had died before the son John inheriting these lands in
1284-5 or before. This would correct the CP account, which
states only of Sir John's death that

" He d. before Oct. 1291. " [CP IV:133, cites De Banco,
Mich., 19-20 Edw. I, m. 97]

2. The above extracted text provides the following pedigree,
following the tenure of the manor of Thornton Bridge (the
spelling 'Deyvill' is adopted for this purpose):

[NOTE: the following is for discussion purposes only]


Robert Deyvill = Denise FitzWilliam
d. aft 1242 I
___________I
I
Sir John Deyvill = 1) Maud [de Mowbray ?] 2) Alice
d. bef 1286 I m. bef 8 May 1275
______________I
I
Sir John Deyvill = 1) Agnes = 2) Margaret (she m. 2nd
b. aft 21 July 1274 I I Adam de Everingham)
d. 1325/26 I I had dower in 1334 [1]
I I________________
__________________________I___________ I
I I I I
Sir Robert Elizabeth Margaret Joan
m. bef May 1321 = Sir Alexander = Sir Adam de
Margaret de de Ledes Everingham 'jr'
Holbeach d. ca. 1325 or later
he d. bef 28 Apr I
1338 I
I I
V Boniface de Ledes, fl. 1334
I
I
Alexander de Ledes = Margaret
received grant of Cundall and Thornton, 1334 [1]
I
I
Ralph de Nevill = Elizabeth
of Thornton Bridge [de jure uxoris]
b. say 1330-1350


This pedigree gives a total of 4 generations (Sir John, b. aft 21 July
1274 to Elizabeth de Ledes, wife of Ralph de Nevill, b. say 1330-1350) in a
space of between 56 and 76 years: this gives a low average of 14 years per
generation, and a high average of 19 years. The high end of this is not
unreasonable, but overall this gives the appearance of compressing too many
generations into this timespan.

More importantly, as Rosie noted previously, it appears that Alexander
de Ledes, son of Alexander, was functioning as an adult in 1307:

'Alexander, son of Alexander de Ledes' was active in 1307 when
he bought land by fine [M.Roper, 'Feet of Fines for the County of
York from 1300-1314'. Wakefield: The Yorks. Archaeological Society,
1965. p.63].

Unless there is a misunderstanding in the Ledes pedigree, this appears
to be a reference to the younger Alexander de Ledes in the foregoing
pedigree: he could not have been a grandson of Sir John Deyvill (b. after
July 1274) if he was himself an adult in 1307, when Sir John Deyvill
himself would have been only 33 years of age or younger.

Cheers,

John





NOTES

[1] citation provided by Rosie previously:

W. Pailey Baildon, 'Feet of Fines for the County
of York from 1327-1347'. Wakefield: The Yorks. Archaeological Society, 1910.
p.60.
"Westminster. Quindene of Easter, 4 Edw III, 1330
Octave of the Purification, 8 Edw III, 1334
Alexander de Ledes and Margaret his wife, by Peter de Rychemond their
attorney, quer., and Boneface de Ledes, def., of the manors of Thorneton on
Swale, Cundale, Kyrkeby on the Moor, Ledes and Gypton, and of 5 messuages, 6
bovates and 7 acres of land and 60 acres of wood, in Myldeby and Lecceby: To
hold to Alexander and Margaret and the heirs of their bodies, subject to the
life interest which Margaret wife of Adam de Everyngham has by way of dower
in one third of the manors of Thorneton and Cundale..."
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InnleggSkrevet: 28 Sep 2004 22:28:50    Tittel: Re: Emma, Engalns 1st queen Svar med Sitat

Adrian,

Many thanks for this tip. All in all enjoyable, if a bit stretched.

But AElgifu is said in this program to have been AEthelred's
mistress. I was under the impression that she was his first wife. ??

Nan


----- Original Message -----
From: <ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 4:54 PM
Subject: Emma, Engalns 1st queen


Sitat:
Tonight's (Monday) BBC Radio 4 programme _Document_ is on Emma, England's
1st
queen (wife of Edward the Confessor, etc.). This starts at 8.00 pm BST
(7pm
GMT), but after it has finished and for seven days can be listen to again
over
the net at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/

I don't know if it will be any good.

Adrian
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InnleggSkrevet: 28 Sep 2004 22:56:14    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FH56d.170$Xc6.5449@eagle.america.net...
Sitat:
Bingo!

You've got it right.

Of course, I pointed out these historical facts several days ago.

What, in this posting?

"John Holand [1395/6-1447], later Constable Of The Tower [1420] and 3rd Duke of
Essex [6 Jan 1443/4] certainly WAS at the Siege of Harfleur and the Battle of
Agincourt.

Thomas Beaufort was ALSO at the Siege of Harfleur, took the surrender of the
city on 22 Sep 1415 and commanded the garrison there AFTER the surrender.

Thomas did NOT fight in the Battle of Agincourt on 25 October 1415. He was not
YET Duke of Essex either. He became the 2nd Duke of Essex [for life], the first
duke of the second creation, on 18 November 1416.

'Nuff Said.

D. Spencer Hines



My dear David, we are all waiting with bated breath for more revelations abbout
this little known branch of the Holland family, which is of significant
historical importance.
You owe it to us all to give details of the research that turned this up, and
where this came from.... don't be so modest, remarkable work!
I never even heard of a C15 Duke of Essex until this time....
Well Done
Martin
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InnleggSkrevet: 29 Sep 2004 01:32:39    Tittel: Re: Emma, Engalns 1st queen Svar med Sitat

I suppose you could argue who England's 1st queen was. Depends who was the
first king. If the 1st king was King Egbert, then the 1st queen was Queen
Raedburgh.


""ferdon"" <ferdon@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:000801c4a588$f8d3ec70$9ad08351@youroezpw20g0p...
Sitat:
Adrian,

Many thanks for this tip. All in all enjoyable, if a bit stretched.

But AElgifu is said in this program to have been AEthelred's
mistress. I was under the impression that she was his first wife. ??

Nan


----- Original Message -----
From: <ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Sent: Monday, September 27, 2004 4:54 PM
Subject: Emma, Engalns 1st queen


Tonight's (Monday) BBC Radio 4 programme _Document_ is on Emma,
England's
1st
queen (wife of Edward the Confessor, etc.). This starts at 8.00 pm BST
(7pm
GMT), but after it has finished and for seven days can be listen to
again
over
the net at:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/

I don't know if it will be any good.

Adrian

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InnleggSkrevet: 29 Sep 2004 15:51:19    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

Well-Stated!

This Warwick is Richard de Beauchamp [Jan 1381/2-1439], 13th Earl of
Warwick.

You are right....

Despite Shakespeare, Warwick, who was at the Siege of Harfleur, does not
seem to have been at the Battle of Agincourt. He is said to have gone
to Calais, with the Duke of Clarence, in charge of prisoners captured at
Harfleur.

Vide CP:XII/2:378-382

I don't think Shakespeare is in any way bound by strict HISTORICITY in
these matters and his putting a not-yet Duke of Exeter [Thomas Beaufort]
at the Battle of Agincourt [where he did in fact fight and serve] is
entirely allowable ---- in a fictional play -- BASED on History.

Mel Gibson would agree. <g>

Cheers,

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"Robert Stonehouse" <ew65@bcs.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:v1rkl01tr4d0pivr4c5pl8saqbu8n4p78r@4ax.com...

| On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:38:48 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
| <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
| ...
| >Thomas Beaufort, Henry V's [half] Uncle, was not at the Battle of
| >Agincourt but Captain of Harfleur and he was not yet Duke of Exeter.
| >
| >Poetic License on Will Shakespeare's part -- and it certainly works
| >dramatically.
| >
| >D. Spencer Hines
| >
| >Lux et Veritas et Libertas
| >
| >Vires et Honor
| >
| >"James C. Woodard" <gwyddon@arac.netNOSPAM> wrote in message
| >news:SL-dnUzY8JtQS8XcRVn-pA@comcast.com...
| >| "Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in
| >| news:aw44d.409$CS6.335@newsfe5-win.ntli.net:
| >|
| >| > When was this title bestowed, and upon whom?
| >|
| >| First creation: 29 Sept. 1397, John de Holand
| >| Second creation: 18 Nov. 1416, Thomas Beaufort
| >| Third creation: 6 Jan. 1443/4, John Holand
| >|
| >| >I don't remember Henry V
| >| > (Brannaugh or Olivier) even mentioning him at Agincourt?
| >| >
| >|
| >| from Henry V, the St. Crispin's Day speech at the outset of the
| >| battle of Agincourt.
| >| "Familiar in his mouth as household words,
| >| Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
| >| Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,..."
| >|
| >| So it seems that Will put the words in Hal's mouth, despite the
fact
| >| that Thomas Beaufort was not at Agincourt, but holding Harfleur,
and
| >| was not yet Duke of Exeter. Hey, it made good theatre, right?
|
| In the play, briefly (since this is not the Shakespeare
| newsgroup):
| The people who enter at the beginning of the scene are
| Gloucester, Bedford, Exeter, Salisbury and Westmoreland.
|
| Hal finds his top officers discusssing the situation
| despondently and wishing (very reasonably) that they were
| somewhere else. That will not do and so he sets about
| sorting it out. He begins in a low key, colloquially, to get
| them on side, but then he crowns it by mentioning their
| names, connecting them with his own, and also adding two
| others of people not at Agincourt and not in the play:
| Warwick and Talbot. (Which Warwick? The Kingmaker? He was
| too late for this, but a powerful name. Talbot was in
| Ireland.) Now he has them and can go on to his peroration.
| (Westmoreland is metrically difficult for a passage of high
| rhetoric.)
|
| Illustrating the difference:
| Colloquial, broken up:
| 'Be, in their flowing cups, freely remember'd'.
| Rhetorical, strictly metrical, four lines later:
| 'But we in it shall be rememberEd'.
|
| Maybe Shakespeare was wrong, historically, about Exeter, but
| he was wrong about Warwick and Talbot on purpose.
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InnleggSkrevet: 29 Sep 2004 20:09:56    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 23:38:48 -0000, "D. Spencer Hines"
<poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote:
....
Sitat:
Thomas Beaufort, Henry V's [half] Uncle, was not at the Battle of
Agincourt but Captain of Harfleur and he was not yet Duke of Exeter.

Poetic License on Will Shakespeare's part -- and it certainly works
dramatically.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

Vires et Honor

"James C. Woodard" <gwyddon@arac.netNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:SL-dnUzY8JtQS8XcRVn-pA@comcast.com...
| "Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in
| news:aw44d.409$CS6.335@newsfe5-win.ntli.net:
|
| > When was this title bestowed, and upon whom?
|
| First creation: 29 Sept. 1397, John de Holand
| Second creation: 18 Nov. 1416, Thomas Beaufort
| Third creation: 6 Jan. 1443/4, John Holand
|
| >I don't remember Henry V
| > (Brannaugh or Olivier) even mentioning him at Agincourt?
|
|
| from Henry V, the St. Crispin's Day speech at the outset of the
| battle of Agincourt.
| "Familiar in his mouth as household words,
| Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
| Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,..."
|
| So it seems that Will put the words in Hal's mouth, despite the fact
| that Thomas Beaufort was not at Agincourt, but holding Harfleur, and
| was not yet Duke of Exeter. Hey, it made good theatre, right?

In the play, briefly (since this is not the Shakespeare
newsgroup):
The people who enter at the beginning of the scene are
Gloucester, Bedford, Exeter, Salisbury and Westmoreland.

Hal finds his top officers discusssing the situation
despondently and wishing (very reasonably) that they were
somewhere else. That will not do and so he sets about
sorting it out. He begins in a low key, colloquially, to get
them on side, but then he crowns it by mentioning their
names, connecting them with his own, and also adding two
others of people not at Agincourt and not in the play:
Warwick and Talbot. (Which Warwick? The Kingmaker? He was
too late for this, but a powerful name. Talbot was in
Ireland.) Now he has them and can go on to his peroration.
(Westmoreland is metrically difficult for a passage of high
rhetoric.)

Illustrating the difference:
Colloquial, broken up:
'Be, in their flowing cups, freely remember'd'.
Rhetorical, strictly metrical, four lines later:
'But we in it shall be rememberEd'.

Maybe Shakespeare was wrong, historically, about Exeter, but
he was wrong about Warwick and Talbot on purpose.
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InnleggSkrevet: 30 Sep 2004 03:22:48    Tittel: Re: CP Addition: Margaret, wife of (1) Sir John Deiville and Svar med Sitat

Wednesday, 29 September, 2004


Dear David, Rosie, et al.,

Many thanks for the tremendous amount of material you've passed
on from the Bradford Archives (David) and the North Riding VCH
(Rosie).

I've had a fast (and hopefully not totally futile) fossick at
the LOC today, and am sorry to report there is little to add from
the account in Vol. I for Cundall, which follows:

The Victoria History of the County of York,
North Riding, I:364

" CUNDALL at the time of the Domesday Survey was among the
lands of Robert Count of Mortain [V.C.H. Yorks. ii, 306]. With
its berewicks of Norton and Leckby it formed an important
'manor' of 21 carucates, whih had been held by Wallef. In 1086
Alured was tenant, and the land was described as waste. Land
in Leckby and Brampton Hall (Branstone), Fawdington (Goindel),
North Stainley (Staneleia), East Tanfield (Danefelt), and
'Caldwelle' in Marton-on-the-Moor [Ibid. 230], was soke of the
manor.
Cundall, with other lands of the Count of Mortain [Ellis,
Landholders of Yorks. i, 17], was granted to Niel de Albini,
and the overlordship followed the descent of his manor of
Thirsk (q.v.)[Chan. Inq. p. m., 1 Hen. IV (pt. i), no. 71b,
m. 22; (Ser. 2), xl, 106; xlix, 40].
From an early period Cundall was closely associated
[Kirkby's Inq. (Surt. Soc.), 184] with Thornton Bridge [see
Brafferton, Yorks. N.R. ii]. The family of Deyvill were
tenants in demesne, and were followed by the Nevills of
Thornton Bridge. "


Following on this is an limited discussion re: the Nevill
family and thereafter.

I will be reviewing what you've sent, and the other myriad
notes I took from the VCH (N.R. I) volume I reviewed; hopefully
there is something applicable, and helpful, that will turn up.

Cheers,

John
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InnleggSkrevet: 30 Sep 2004 03:47:28    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:PhD6d.12$2c7.579@eagle.america.net...
Sitat:
Well-Stated!

This Warwick is Richard de Beauchamp [Jan 1381/2-1439], 13th Earl of
Warwick.

You are right....

Despite Shakespeare, Warwick, who was at the Siege of Harfleur, does not
seem to have been at the Battle of Agincourt. He is said to have gone
to Calais, with the Duke of Clarence, in charge of prisoners captured at
Harfleur.

Vide CP:XII/2:378-382

I don't think Shakespeare is in any way bound by strict HISTORICITY in
these matters and his putting a not-yet Duke of Exeter [Thomas Beaufort]
at the Battle of Agincourt [where he did in fact fight and serve] is
entirely allowable ---- in a fictional play -- BASED on History.

Mel Gibson would agree. <g

Were the Gibsons not once Dukes of Essex? My godson and daughter are of that
ancient and noble family (naturally I was chosen because of my connections) ,
and would be delighted to know more of this?

The Earl of Warwick you speak of there Spency, is buried in St Mary's church,
near Wawick Castle, and his monument is (IMO and the opinion of many others) to
be the finest in the UK. Well worth making a visit to Warwick for alone, never
mind all the other delights.


I have no doubt the men who gilded the thing wit mercury amalgum were somewhat
blue in the gum and groggy when the job was done, but it was well worth it....
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InnleggSkrevet: 30 Sep 2004 18:46:04    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:QAJ6d.482$EO3.215@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...

Sitat:
I have no doubt the men who gilded the thing wit mercury amalgum were
somewhat
blue in the gum and groggy when the job was done, but it was well worth
it....

Most medieval gilding seems not to have been, as was thought for many

years, the product of mercuric gilding but very skilful use of gold leaf.

I know that research was done in the extant Greenwich armours and were all
(there are only three left) found to be gilded by gold leaf although they
had been thought for many years to have been mercuric gilded.

There's no doubt that the techniques of mercuric gilding were known, but
looking at the technology available to goldsmiths when I set up my medieval
silversmiths workshop the conclusion was reached (by several people involved
including experts in gilding and toxicity) that they'd have gone through
apprentices at a rate that would preclude recruitment of sane candidates in
a very short time.

Plus there's no records of goldsmiths dying early (or a 'goldsmith's
disease) Indeed, they seem to have lasted a reasonably long time.

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government
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InnleggSkrevet: 01 Okt 2004 00:19:17    Tittel: Re: de Lusignan: Jerusalem or Cyprus? Svar med Sitat

Dear Newsgroup,
According to Miroslav Marek`s Genealogy. Eu
website de Lusignan 1 (which as with Everyrhing, should be used with caution )
Amaury II de Lusignan was made Constable of Jerusalem and in 1194 became King
of Jerusalem,in 1197 He was also made King of Cyprus and is considered monarch
of both Kingdoms, though the Christians at the time control Jerusalem, until
1205.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA
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InnleggSkrevet: 01 Okt 2004 01:00:18    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"William Black" <abuse@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cjhd6b$fj5$1@news.freedom2surf.net...
Sitat:

"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:QAJ6d.482$EO3.215@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...

I have no doubt the men who gilded the thing wit mercury amalgum were
somewhat
blue in the gum and groggy when the job was done, but it was well worth
it....

Most medieval gilding seems not to have been, as was thought for many
years, the product of mercuric gilding but very skilful use of gold leaf.

I know that research was done in the extant Greenwich armours and were all
(there are only three left) found to be gilded by gold leaf although they
had been thought for many years to have been mercuric gilded.

There's no doubt that the techniques of mercuric gilding were known, but
looking at the technology available to goldsmiths when I set up my
medieval
silversmiths workshop the conclusion was reached (by several people
involved
including experts in gilding and toxicity) that they'd have gone through
apprentices at a rate that would preclude recruitment of sane candidates
in
a very short time.

Plus there's no records of goldsmiths dying early (or a 'goldsmith's
disease) Indeed, they seem to have lasted a reasonably long time.


I remember being told my great aunt had injections of gold to cure/help her
arthritis. So people, even until the 1940s must have thought gold had
medicinal merit to some degree.

Renia
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InnleggSkrevet: 01 Okt 2004 01:29:11    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

"Renia" <reni@DELETEotenet.gr> skrev i en meddelelse
news:cji31l$t1h$1@usenet.otenet.gr...
Sitat:

"William Black" <abuse@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:cjhd6b$fj5$1@news.freedom2surf.net...

"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:QAJ6d.482$EO3.215@newsfe6-gui.ntli.net...

I have no doubt the men who gilded the thing wit mercury amalgum were
somewhat
blue in the gum and groggy when the job was done, but it was well
worth
it....

Most medieval gilding seems not to have been, as was thought for many
years, the product of mercuric gilding but very skilful use of gold
leaf.

I know that research was done in the extant Greenwich armours and were
all
(there are only three left) found to be gilded by gold leaf although
they
had been thought for many years to have been mercuric gilded.

There's no doubt that the techniques of mercuric gilding were known,
but
looking at the technology available to goldsmiths when I set up my
medieval
silversmiths workshop the conclusion was reached (by several people
involved
including experts in gilding and toxicity) that they'd have gone through
apprentices at a rate that would preclude recruitment of sane candidates
in
a very short time.

Plus there's no records of goldsmiths dying early (or a 'goldsmith's
disease) Indeed, they seem to have lasted a reasonably long time.


I remember being told my great aunt had injections of gold to cure/help
her
arthritis. So people, even until the 1940s must have thought gold had
medicinal merit to some degree.

Renia

Hej Renia!
They still use a gold treatment for arthritis, but I don't know if the
treatment you mention might have been stronger.

Sitat:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/ask_doctor/gold_treatment.shtml

Cheers
Grethe
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InnleggSkrevet: 01 Okt 2004 03:26:55    Tittel: Re: de Lusignan: Jerusalem or Cyprus? Svar med Sitat

Thanks, James, but the question is regarding his two sons.

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:

Sitat:
Dear Newsgroup,
According to Miroslav Marek`s Genealogy. Eu
website de Lusignan 1 (which as with Everyrhing, should be used with caution )
Amaury II de Lusignan was made Constable of Jerusalem and in 1194 became King
of Jerusalem,in 1197 He was also made King of Cyprus and is considered monarch
of both Kingdoms, though the Christians at the time control Jerusalem, until
1205.
Sincerely,
James W
Cummings
Dixmont,
Maine USA



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InnleggSkrevet: 01 Okt 2004 04:27:17    Tittel: Re: de Lusignan : Jerusalem or Cyprus ? Svar med Sitat

Dear Greg,
Lusignan 1 indicates that Amaury II de Lusignan succeeeded
his brother Guy as King of Jerusalem (r. 1186-1192), had four sons, three of
whom, Guy , Jean, and Amaury predeceased him and was succeeded in 1205 by
his remaining son Hugues I as King of Cyprus,after Hugues I. Henri I, and
Hugues II ruled at Cyprus, Hugues I`s daughter Isabel who had married Henri de
Chatillon`s son Hugues III took the surname Lusignan ,succeeded to the
Cypriotan throne and was followed on it by descendants almost to the third quarter of
the fifteenth century.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
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InnleggSkrevet: 01 Okt 2004 05:50:42    Tittel: Re: FW: Descent from Jarl Haakon Paulsson (was Re: Somerled' Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 9/30/2004 12:03:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
bclagett@cov.com writes:
The Gascoigne descent you mention must come through the marriage of
Sir William Gascoigne (1403/4-146l/2) and Margaret Clarell. But I have
seen two versions of Margaret's parentage; some sources say she was
daughter of Thomas Clarell and Elizabeth Scrope, but others say she was
sister of that Thomas and daughter of Thomas Clarell and Maud
Montgomery, which would exclude the Atholl descent. Chronology may
resolve this problem, but before I dig into it I'd be glad to know
whether you have done so or have any firm proof that the later
Gascoignes were descended from Elizabeth Scrope and hence from the
earls of Atholl.
Margaret Clarell whose first husband was Sir John Fitzwilliam, son and heir
of Sir John Fitzwilliam of Sprotborough, co. York by Eleanor Greene, was the
daughter of Thomas Clarell [-May 1, 1442] by Matilda Montgomery.

Saville of Rufford, Nottinghamshire Archives:

Reference: DD/SR/28/3/7
Creation dates: 11 Hen IV [1409-10]

Scope and Content
Marriage settlement made by indenture between John Fitzwilliam and Thomas
Clarell' on the occasion of the marriage of John son of John and Margaret
daughter of Thomas (Derthyngton', Yk Wentebrigge, Yk)

I have a copy of this document in its entirety. Her brother Thomas Clarell
the younger married Elizabeth le Scrope.

Foljambe of Osberton, Nottinghamshire Archives:

Reference: DD/FJ/4/34/3
Creation dates: 14 May 1408
Language: Latin


Scope and Content
Grant.

1) Thos. Clarell.

2) Thos. Clarell his son, and wife Eliz.

(1) to (2) £20 as above; if T.C. jun. die under 14 before consummation, Eliz.
to marry his bro. John.

Witn.: Hen. Vavasour and John Everyngham, kts.

At S. Milford, 9 Hen. IV.

Armorial seal.

Reference: DD/FJ/4/34/2
Creation dates: 8 May 1408
Language: Latin


Scope and Content
Defeasance of bond.

1) Thos. Clarell, Lord of Steveton.

2) Eliz. widow of Sir John Lescrop.

Bond of (1) to (2) in £600 void if (1) pay his s. Thos. and wife Eliz., d. of
(2), £20 p.a. from lands in S. Milforde, Munkefriston, Lumby and Barkeston.

At Haldanby, 9 Hen. IV.

Armorial seal.

Her marriage to William Gascoigne was a clandestine marriage.

As to Aymer de Athol I have no issue for him. He was granted the wardship of
the lands of David de Strabolgi earl of Athol [ca. May 8, 1333-Oct. 10, 1369]
father of Elizabeth Strabolgi who married (1) Sir Thomas Percy died in Spain
1387-1388 (2) Sir John le Scrope married before Sept. 29, 1391. This is the
Elizabeth, widow of Sir John le Scrope referenced above.

Calendar of documents relating to Scotland preserved in Her Majesties public
record office, London, Vol. III 1307-1357, edited by Joseph Bain, Edinburgh,
1887:

#1206. May 28, 1336
Warrant to the chancellor to issue letters in favour of the king's cousin
Aymar of Athol (Almeric Dathelle) to whom he has granted ward of the late David
earl of Athol's manors of Mitford and Merdisfen in Northumberland till the
heirs majority. Wodestok. [Privy Seals (tower) 10 Edw. III, File 5; and Patent
Rolls, 10 Edw. III, p.1, m.12]

#1439. Oct. 1, 1344
The king grants to his cousin Aymer of Athol the ward of the vill of
Mardefene till the majority of the heir of David de Strabolgy, late earl of Athol,
instead of the £8 yearly of its issues, which he has resigned. Tower of London.
[Patent Rolls, 18 Edw. III, P.2, m.23]

#1583. May 8, 1355
The king commands his escheators in York and five other counties, the
bailiffs of Tyndale, the Chancellor of Ireland, and others having their custody, to
restore his father's lands to David, son and heir of the late David earl of
Athol, whose majority is attained to the king's knowledge, though not proved, and
who is to do homage at Midsummer next. Westminster. [Patent Rolls, 29
Edw.III, p.2, m. 20]

Regards,
MichaelAnne Guido
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InnleggSkrevet: 01 Okt 2004 15:14:58    Tittel: Re: FW: Descent from Jarl Haakon Paulsson (was Re: Somerled' Svar med Sitat

Friday, 1 October, 2004


Dear Brice, MichaelAnne, et al.,

Brice, thanks for your posts from yesterday re: the Gascoigne connection
alluded to in my earlier post. Fortunately, before having a chance to read
them and review my notes, MichaelAnne has stepped in with the fruits of her
research re: the Clarell & related families. [Grazie mille, MichaelAnne !]

Based on the evidence presented, the descent alleged via the Clarel and
Gascoigne lines fails.

Cheers,

John
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InnleggSkrevet: 01 Okt 2004 17:33:22    Tittel: Re: FW: Descent from Jarl Haakon Paulsson (was Re: Somerled' Svar med Sitat

Interesting .... where does one find a good listing
of all the ancestors of Ragnhilda? Leo van de Pas's
site has many, but other advice is sought.

Doug McDonald
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InnleggSkrevet: 03 Okt 2004 04:53:37    Tittel: Re: Emma, Engalns 1st queen Svar med Sitat

ferdon wrote:

Sitat:
But AElgifu is said in this program to have been AEthelred's
mistress. I was under the impression that she was his first wife. ??

AElfgifu is named by several sources as mother of Eadmund Ironside, and
(according to Barlow's Edward the Confessor) the chronicler formerly
known as Florence of Worcester attributes AEthelsan, Eadwig and Eadgyth
to AElfgifu. Apparently (I don't have the Worcester chronicle handy),
none of these explicitly call AElfgifu wife of AEthelred or Queen of
England. Barlow says that they were undoubtably married (although
perhaps not by a church-sanctioned marriage), but I don't know that such
certainty is justified.

taf
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InnleggSkrevet: 03 Okt 2004 16:20:49    Tittel: Re: Emma, England's first queen Svar med Sitat

Athelstan is said to be the first King of England because he completed the
conquest of Cornwall, but previous kings could also be regarded as kings of
england, depending how important you think cornwall is!!



<ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d5.17743b98.2e9148f0@aol.com...
Sitat:
Thank you for your observations, and correcting my mangled subject line.

Regarding England's 1st queen, I suppose there are a number of factors to
be
consider

First there must be someone who ruled all, or at least substantially all
of
England, I have read that the first to be so recognised was Aethelstan
(reigned
925 to 939), but I'm not sure if he had any known wife/consort.

Secondly, for the king's consort to be queen, presumably there must have
been
a christian marriage. If my notes are correct, I have a marriage for
Edmund I
(murdered 946) to Elgifu, but don't know if this was a _recognised
christian
marraige_?

Thirdly, it would be best to have the king's consort anointed and crowned
(which I expect happened in the case of Eadgar partly because of his
support of
archbishop Dunstan). The problem here is that there have been English
monarchs
who were never crowned (Edward V and Edward VIII, then does Lady Jane Grey
count, she is often quoted as the person with the shortest reign, but them
always omitted from lists of monarchs - can't remember if she was crowned,
but I
doubt it).

It seems to me that your argument gives Aelfthryth the strongest claim to
be
call the 1st English Queen, but because of the nature of the title it is
also
perhaps not correct to say that all other candidates do not qualify.
Whether
Aelfgifu-Emma does so qualify, I don't know, but this was part of the
title
for a mass-media radio programme, so exaggeration cannot be ruled out.

Adrian


John P. wrote;

Upon her marriage to Aethelred II, Emma of Normandy adopted (or was
given)
the Anglo-Saxon name Aelfgifu. She is generally known to historians as
Aelfgifu-Emma, and some historians have inevitably confused her with her
husband's first consort.

Whatever we call her, however, Aelfgifu-Emma was not the first queen of
England. The first woman anointed and crowned as the consort of an
Anglo-Saxon king of all England, and hence the first who can (and
should)
properly be called queen, was Aethelred II's mother, Eadgar's second
wife
Aelfthryth.

Pauline Stafford discusses Aelfgifu-Emma and Aelfthryth extensively, the
latter in *Queens, Concubines, and Dowagers: The King's Wife in the
Early
Middle Ages* (Athens, GA: University of Georgia Press, 1983), and the
former

in *Queen Emma and Queen Edith: Queenship and Women's Power in
Eleventh-Century England* (Oxford: Blackwell's, 1997).



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InnleggSkrevet: 03 Okt 2004 16:22:17    Tittel: Re: Emma, England's first queen Svar med Sitat

Thank you for your observations, and correcting my mangled subject line.

Regarding England's 1st queen, I suppose there are a number of factors to be
consider

First there must be someone who ruled all, or at least substantially all of
England, I have read that the first to be so recognised was Aethelstan (reigned
925 to 939), but I'm not sure if he had any known wife/consort.

Secondly, for the king's consort to be queen, presumably there must have been
a christian marriage. If my notes are correct, I have a marriage for Edmund I
(murdered 946) to Elgifu, but don't know if this was a _recognised christian
marraige_?

Thirdly, it would be best to have the king's consort anointed and crowned
(which I expect happened in the case of Eadgar partly because of his support of
archbishop Dunstan). The problem here is that there have been English monarchs
who were never crowned (Edward V and Edward VIII, then does Lady Jane Grey
count, she is often quoted as the person with the shortest reign, but them
always omitted from lists of monarchs — can't remember if she was crowned, but I
doubt it).

It seems to me that your argument gives Aelfthryth the strongest claim to be
call the 1st English Queen, but because of the nature of the title it is also
perhaps not correct to say that all other candidates do not qualify. Whether
Aelfgifu-Emma does so qualify, I don't know, but this was part of the title
for a mass-media radio programme, so exaggeration cannot be ruled out.

Adrian


John P. wrote;

Sitat:
Upon her marriage to Aethelred II, Emma of Normandy adopted (or was given)
the Anglo-Saxon name Aelfgifu. She is generally known to historians as
Aelfgifu-Emma, and some historians have inevitably confused her with her
husband's first consort.

Whatever we call her, however, Aelfgifu-Emma was not the first queen of
England. The first woman anointed and crowned as the consort of an
Anglo-Saxon king of all England, and hence the first who can (and should)
properly be called queen, was Aethelred II's mother, Eadgar's second wife
Aelfthryth.

Pauline Stafford discusses Aelfgifu-Emma and Aelfthryth extensively, the
latter in *Queens, Concubines, and Dowagers: The King's Wife in the Early
Middle Ages* (Athens, GA: University of Georgia Press, 1983), and the former

in *Queen Emma and Queen Edith: Queenship and Women's Power in
Eleventh-Century England* (Oxford: Blackwell's, 1997).


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InnleggSkrevet: 03 Okt 2004 20:55:31    Tittel: Re: Emma, England`s 1st Queen Svar med Sitat

Dear Newsgroup,
A ccording to David Williamson`s book `Kings and
Queens of Britain (1992) p 28
Ethelred II the Unready born 968/969- died 1016 was twice married 1st in
about 985 to Aelfgifu, daughter of Ealderman Thoraed of Northumbria. She bore
several children, some of whom predeaceased their father and died before the
spring of 1002 when Ethelred II was married to Emma.
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
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InnleggSkrevet: 03 Okt 2004 21:07:17    Tittel: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

Yes, that's one of your Great Problems.

You don't actually have a Written Constitution per se -- and you need
one.

We Americans saw that deficiency in your Governmental Structure -- so,
after breaking away from you -- we wrote one for ourselves -- and it has
served us very well for over 200 years now.

DSH

<ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7f.4dc950e3.2e91e588@aol.com...

| John Parsons,
|
| Thanks for your further comments and examples on this subject.
|
| I suppose the trick is to apply contemporary laws and customs, rather
than
| impose today's rules, all the same I detect that The Complete Peerage
is guilty
| of this error, all those _de jure_ peers. Not having it written down,
| understanding the British/English constitution is a bit like pinning
down a blob of
| mercury, you think you have it sussed, but then it has changed shape.
|
| Adrian
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InnleggSkrevet: 03 Okt 2004 22:08:51    Tittel: Re: Emma, England`s 1st Queen Svar med Sitat

Jwc1870@aol.com wrote:
Sitat:
Dear Newsgroup,
A ccording to David Williamson`s book `Kings and
Queens of Britain (1992) p 28
Ethelred II the Unready born 968/969- died 1016 was twice married 1st in
about 985 to Aelfgifu, daughter of Ealderman Thoraed of Northumbria.

Two sources give her parentage, and they are in direct conflict with
each other. It must be considered unknown. As to whether a marriage
took place, this is a reasonable conclusion, but as far as I know, not
directly attested to.

taf
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 02:19:48    Tittel: Re: Emma, England's first queen Svar med Sitat

In message of 4 Oct, ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote:

Sitat:
John Parsons,

Thanks for your further comments and examples on this subject.

I suppose the trick is to apply contemporary laws and customs, rather
than impose today's rules, all the same I detect that The Complete
Peerage is guilty of this error, all those _de jure_ peers. Not
having it written down, understanding the British/English
constitution is a bit like pinning down a blob of mercury, you think
you have it sussed, but then it has changed shape.

But then that is what lawyers are paid very handsomely for: to convince
the judges of the House of Lords that things are So when previously they
had been thought to be Not So.

And then Parliament can pass a law to put it all back again.

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 03:30:21    Tittel: Re: Emma, England's first queen Svar med Sitat

John Parsons,

Thanks for your further comments and examples on this subject.

I suppose the trick is to apply contemporary laws and customs, rather than
impose today's rules, all the same I detect that The Complete Peerage is guilty
of this error, all those _de jure_ peers. Not having it written down,
understanding the British/English constitution is a bit like pinning down a blob of
mercury, you think you have it sussed, but then it has changed shape.

Adrian
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 03:44:43    Tittel: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Svar med Sitat

Is the Otto I mentioned at the bottom of this post as being the sister of
Gerberga, the one who was born in 912, and whose wives were Eadgyth of
Wessex and Adelheid de Bourgogne?
Merilyn Pedrick
Mylor, South Australia

-------Original Message-------

From: Vaughan Sanders
Date: 09/28/04 05:20:15
To: GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: John Holand [1395/6-1447], 3rd Duke of Exeter, Constable Of The
Tower

"Soren Larsen" <sohela@tiscali.dk> wrote in message
news:2ropi3F1ca7riU1@uni-berlin.de...
Sitat:

"Vaughan Sanders" <jamie@chalkwell-windsurfing.fsnet.co.uk> skrev i en
meddelelse news:cj6t1v$aj5$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...

snip


Sitat:
The EER is earlier than Adam of Bremen the information is from Emma
of
Normandy, Cnut's wife, circa 1035.
Adam's information comes a generation later from Harald's great
grandson
Sven Estrithson circa 1070.
Dudo's account was written betweem 996 and 1015


Sure but both EER and Adam had inside family sources.


Sitat:




And Adam continues that the army brought the body back to Denmark
where it was buried in the new church in Roskilde.

This is rather hard to believe since:

A) Haralds army was defeated and in exile so it is difficult to
believe
that they freely could return to Roskilde which was an old
important
likely
royal center.

B) According to Adam was Svein a pagan - thus the rebellion.
So even if the army was allowed to return the burial in a christian
church makes no sense.

Adam doesn't say Svein was a pagan, he says Svein took counsel with
those his father had compelled to become Christians.

Immidiately after this passage comes:

Suddenly the Danes makes a conspiracy, denounces their Christian
faith and makes Svein king.

And this a bit later

2nd book, 29: "at the time when Svein started his great persecution
of the christians in the land of the Danes"

I suppose you are working from an abridged version but Inger
must be blind.


No I have the full version, but you are right he does say Svein was a
pagan


Sitat:
(It was the Otto I, the Saxon, Holy Roman Emperor, who forced
Christianity on Harald)

Actually no.

It was Otto II who was at war with Denmark and he was stopped
in Slesvig.

Another example of Adam's unreliability.


Yes he does have the wrong Otto.

Sitat:



Adam was getting this information from Harald's great-grandson, he
says
the King made no answer when he questioned him on his grandparents
crime. But when he preferred a charge of parricide, Svein Estrithson
said: "That is what we, his posterity, are expiating and what he
himself
the parricide, made atonement for in exile".


We actually know that Svein was christian, so all in all are Adam
not very trustworthy on danish politics at this time.


Harald's death was around 988 according to Adam.

Actually no.

According to Adam died Harald in "the evening of arch bishop
Adaldagss life" Adaldag was bishop from 937-988 so it gives
a bit of leeway on when Harald died. Even 983 where we
have the last confirmation of Harald alive is possible

Yes, Adam says Adaldag died in 988 and was buried in the church of
Bremen.


Harald would appear to have been about the same age as Duke
Richard
I ,
if Adam's and the dating of the GND is right.

The start of Haralds reign are traditionally dated based on the
last
mention
of Gorm the old in the sources ie 935-36. But dendro dating of
the wood in Gorms mound show that it was felled in 958.
I would imagine that this can have some implication on the age
of Harald.

Harald's reign is usually dated 941 - 988, so he couldn't be the
Harald,
Bernard the Dane called on in 945, but if Gorm was still king in 958
then he could be.
Do you know of any other reason he could not have been in Normandy
in
945?

Yup

The Danes were fighting in Saxony in the 40's and Harald would
have been there if was at all fit to send abroad.

Cheers
Soren Larsen


This is Otto I.
King Louis of France was married to Otto's sister Gerberga, she asked
her brother for support (in 946 according to Flodoard) Otto came with an
army and joined Louis against the Normans, Harald had returned to
Denmark by this time (according to the GND).

Jamie
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 08:20:09    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

The American constitution was a negotiated piece of paper that appeased the
landed and gentry. It was not democratic at all.

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qf08d.166$C4.5515@eagle.america.net...
Sitat:
Yes, that's one of your Great Problems.

You don't actually have a Written Constitution per se -- and you need
one.

We Americans saw that deficiency in your Governmental Structure -- so,
after breaking away from you -- we wrote one for ourselves -- and it has
served us very well for over 200 years now.

DSH

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7f.4dc950e3.2e91e588@aol.com...

| John Parsons,
|
| Thanks for your further comments and examples on this subject.
|
| I suppose the trick is to apply contemporary laws and customs, rather
than
| impose today's rules, all the same I detect that The Complete Peerage
is guilty
| of this error, all those _de jure_ peers. Not having it written down,
| understanding the British/English constitution is a bit like pinning
down a blob of
| mercury, you think you have it sussed, but then it has changed shape.
|
| Adrian
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 10:26:56    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qf08d.166$C4.5515@eagle.america.net...
Sitat:
Yes, that's one of your Great Problems.

You don't actually have a Written Constitution per se -- and you need
one.

We Americans saw that deficiency in your Governmental Structure -- so,
after breaking away from you -- we wrote one for ourselves -- and it has
served us very well for over 200 years now.

DSH

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7f.4dc950e3.2e91e588@aol.com...

| John Parsons,
|
| Thanks for your further comments and examples on this subject.
|
| I suppose the trick is to apply contemporary laws and customs, rather
than
| impose today's rules, all the same I detect that The Complete Peerage
is guilty
| of this error, all those _de jure_ peers. Not having it written down,
| understanding the British/English constitution is a bit like pinning
down a blob of
| mercury, you think you have it sussed, but then it has changed shape.
|
| Adrian


<Slight facetiousness>
Until the Patriot Act.
>/Slight facetiousness>
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 10:28:34    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

I dunno...The constitution-less Brits have a few
centuries on us...maybe they're doing something
right ?

Best regards, Steve
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 11:47:15    Tittel: Re: GEN-MEDIEVAL-D Digest V04 #795-Surnames Svar med Sitat

In reply to Leo vdP re surnames
Fascinating question, Leo. But rather too wide, since practice varies with
place and social class as well as time. For instance the Chinese have used
surnames since the earliest times, and the Romans from very early on, but the
Arabs, Scots and Welsh were late starters. And in medieval England most people
didn't have surnames at all.
In England we have used at least seven different types of surname:-
a) Place of origin - for example Picard ("the Picardian"), Walsh ("the
Welshman")
b) Family seat, title or residence - de Colville, de Laci etc. At first
actual (and therefore variable), then historic. The "de" often gets dropped
c) Family. At first a patronymic, so variable from generation to generation,
then crystallised. Like the Fitzwalters, O'Briens, Joneses, Armstrongs
(descended from one so nicknamed) Herberts and Andersons
d) Job description. Jobs were often hereditary, especially at court, so we
get Butler (le Botillier or Pincerna), Fraser (le Fraiseur), le Despenser etc.
in Norman times. But also now Miller and Smith and so forth
e) Clan. You take your lords name even if you have no ancestry in common with
him
f) Imposed. Foundlings were often given the name of the place where they were
found, so Lincoln and Temple were names often given to children abandoned in
the Inns of Court so named.
g) Arbitrary. It is still the law of England that a person may use any
surname s/he likes. If others know you by the name of Snodgrass, then Snodgrass is
your name, regardless of who your father was.

I don't know whether we can add a class of "devotional" names, such as
Sinclair (St Clare"). Possibly such names refer to places. Senlis for example was
originally St Elizabeth.

There are some pre-conquest names of origin unknown (to me). Elwes? Wake? And
others, perhaps more recent, are mysterious. Duppa (spelt Twppa in mediaeval
Wales)? Hood?

Anyway, to answer Leo's question: surnames existed, if rarely, in
pre-conquest England. The arrival of the Normans led to a steady increase in the use of
surnames of the different types I have described, but the process wasby no
means complete as late as the 16th century.
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 15:53:21    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

The Constitution was well written, however it is not striclty followed.

FDR fooled with it in trying to pack the court. Current liberals are
doing likewise, making it impossible to get judges who merely interpret
the law, instead chosing those who are willing to make law.
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 16:45:06    Tittel: Re: Emma, England's first queen Svar med Sitat

A couple of comments below

Adrian

Sitat:
The emergence of the doctrine of "abeyance" &its ramifiications for the
English peerage are well discussed in Antony Wagner's *English Genealogy*
(either edition).

Of course those who came to be regarded as Barons purely as a result of the
doctrine that receipt of an individual writ of summons, followed by an
attested sitting in parliament, created a barony descendable to heirs
general would (as Wagner says) have been stunned to learn that they had ever

become barons. Neither they nor their contemporaries, &particularly not
the kings who had such writs of summons issued, ever imagined the
possibility. This doctrine did not crystallize until (roughly) the last
quarter of the 14th century.

The heyday of peerage lawyers' expertise in getting such baronies "called
out of abeyance" came in the 1830s &1840s. Such claims before the House of
Lords never stopped, however, &to bring order to the situation, the
Committee on Privileges of the House of Lords recommended in 1911 (I think
that's the right year) that the Sovereign should not call out of abeyance
peerages that had been in abeyance above 50 years.


1927 and 100 years (and not allowed "where the petitioner, not being the
child of the last holder of the dignity or a descendant of a parent of the last
holder, represents less than one third of the entire dignity"). It is
interesting to note that Lord Grey of Codnor succeeded to his title not used by his
family, being in abeyance since 1496, obtained his title in 1989. He succeeded
because his ancestor (father I think) case was originally raised in 1926, they
were a little slow in granting the title.


Sitat:
Now that the House of Lords no longer exists upon an hereditary basis, it
is
difficult to guess the fate of such baronies as fall into abeyance
henceforth. There may still be a Committee on Privileges for the House, but

as hereditary peers no longer sit in the House, the Committee has no call to

rule on the inheritance of such peerages. I suppose that as time passes
many will disappear as they fall into abeyance &are not called out. Some
few might re-appear as abeyances can always terminate naturally if, say, one

of two sisters and coheirs dies w/o issue so that the other sister becomes
the only surviving heir. (Of course this is all academic anyway as the
peerages no longer have any legal standing &are of purely social
significance.)



The are still around 90 hereditary peers in the house. They were allowed to
choose this number from amongst themselves. There is suppose to be further
reforms to remove these 90 odd members, but I am not sure it will happen. I
expect they will just be left to die out. The position was similar to when the
Irish Parliament was ended in 1801 - Of the Irish peers, 25 were allowed to sit
in the H of L, although I have a feeling that these places remained
hereditary. The bishops retain their places in the H of L's

Sitat:
This doctrine affects English baronies by writ only b/c Scots baronies &
earldoms descend to the eldest daughter, whereas English baronies by writ
were [retroactively construed as somehow being] divided among all daughters
(sisters, female cousins, aunts) or their representative heirs. Thus CP is
found describing some ladies as "coheir (in her issue) to a moiety of the
barony of...." &so on.

The lawyers had to make a living too.

John P.
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 16:56:09    Tittel: Re: Aethelred II's first wife or wives Svar med Sitat

Monday, 4 October, 2004


Dear John,

Thanks for your post concerning Dorothy Whitlock's research re:
the marriages and issue of Æthelræd II. The '3 marriage' solution is
extremely interesting.

I would suggest (based on lack of chronological problems noted,
together with simple onomastic evidence) that Ælfgifu, 2nd wife of
Untred, ealdorman of Northumbria (murdered 1016) was the daughter of
Æthelræd by Ælfgifu (shown by Whitlock as the 2nd wife).

~ Other than Edmund 'Ironside', no other child of Æthelræd II has
comparable genealogical import - their descendants including
the Nevilles of Raby, the (Scots) Earls of March or Dunbar,
all English monarchs since 1399, all Scots monarchs since
1437, and many more besides.

If this article does not deal with the maternity of Ælfgifu the
daughter, that subject would certainly be of great interest for
further study.

Cheers,

John *



* John P. Ravilious
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 18:10:10    Tittel: Re: Emma, England's first queen Svar med Sitat

On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 12:45:06 +0000 (UTC), ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com wrote:

Sitat:
There are still around 90 hereditary peers in the house. They were allowed to
choose this number from amongst themselves.

For the record, according to a letter from Lord Weatherill published
in the Mail on 25 November 1999,

"The Labour Government's manifesto commitment to reform the House of
Lords was the root of a well-publicised and increasingly bitter
debate.
In the light of its desire to move the debate forward in a consensual
manner, four cross-bench peers - myself, Lord Marsh, the Earl of
Carnarvon, and Lord Tenby - held a press conference on December 2,
1998, in which a compromise solution was proposed to help smooth the
transition to a reformed House.
The proposal recommended that, during the transition, a block of
hereditary peers - one-tenth of the total - would be elected and
remain until stage two of the House of Lords reform was completed (at
some later date).
This meant that out of a total of 751 hereditary peers, 75 would
remain in an elected capacity. These 75 are divided among the four
organised groups in proportion to their previous numbers, with 42
Conservatives, two Labour, three Liberal Democrats, and 28
cross-benchers.
In addition, 15 hereditary peers were elected by the whole House to
sit during the transitional phase, being available to sit on the
Woolsack or act as chairmen of committees.
The Lord Great Chamberlain, as Queen's representative, and the Earl
Marshal, who is responsible for ceremony, will retain their seats
until stage two is implemented.
Therefore, 659 hereditary peers have lost their right to sit and vote
as part of stage one, while 92 hereditary peers have remained as part
of the transitional house.
This proposal, moved as an amendment to the Lords Bill, was confirmed
at the third reading on November 11, 1999, and came into force when
the Bill received Royal Assent."
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 19:18:37    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

"George Hein" <zweisteinREMOVETHIS@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:lBc8d.6891$g%5.1441093@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
Sitat:
The Constitution was well written, however it is not striclty followed.

FDR fooled with it in trying to pack the court. Current liberals are
doing likewise, making it impossible to get judges who merely interpret
the law, instead chosing those who are willing to make law.


yeah all those liberal appointments who ignored the constitution to appoint
the current president.
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 19:22:46    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

"raymond o'hara" <reoh@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:NBf8d.177607$D%.85683@attbi_s51...
Sitat:

"George Hein" <zweisteinREMOVETHIS@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:lBc8d.6891$g%5.1441093@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
The Constitution was well written, however it is not striclty followed.

FDR fooled with it in trying to pack the court. Current liberals are
doing likewise, making it impossible to get judges who merely interpret
the law, instead chosing those who are willing to make law.


yeah all those liberal appointments who ignored the constitution to
appoint
the current president.



Ain't it funny how those who extend rights to people who deserve it are
"activist" but those who uphold fraudulent elections are "interpreting"?



--
Drew
----
"Some who get credit for being Conservative are merely stupid."
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 19:56:48    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<qf08d.166$C4.5515@eagle.america.net>...
Sitat:
Yes, that's one of your Great Problems.

You don't actually have a Written Constitution per se -- and you need
one.

We Americans saw that deficiency in your Governmental Structure -- so,
after breaking away from you -- we wrote one for ourselves -- and it has
served us very well for over 200 years now.

DSH

There are British Constitution experts that insist the English

Constitution was written down, in the Act of Union with Scotland in
1707.

The problem with the U.S. Constitution--IMHO as an American whose
first ancestors arrived in North America in 1629--is that it's more
honored in its breach than its observance.

Abraham Lincoln started the wrecking process in 1861, and Franklin
Roosevelt continued it in 1933. Those who watched my cousin George
Walker Bush debate his cousin John Forbes Kerry--and both of them
royally-descended cousins of King George III--watched a debate between
the left and right wing of America's "statist" party.

George III and his ministers, together with the men variously known as
the "signers" and "framers" and "founders" would be appalled by the
notions advanced by both major U.S. political parties, that the
federal government has a "right" to intervene in what was formerly
considered an individual citizen's private affairs.

Daniel MacGregor
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 21:53:26    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

Hi!

You wrote

Sitat:
Yes, that's one of your Great Problems.

You don't actually have a Written Constitution per se -- and you need
one.

1. Why?

Sitat:
We Americans saw that deficiency in your Governmental Structure -- so,
after breaking away from you -- we wrote one for ourselves -- and it has
served us very well for over 200 years now.

2. And that's why you keep amending it.

Regards

Frank
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 22:19:26    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

Agreed, this is OT and wouldn't
be edifying to pursue too far.

Just wanted to challenge the original
poster's inconsistency. If the criteria of
value for governmental systems is their
staying power, the Constitution's 200 years
is a fraction of the longevity of the Brits'
system.

Granted, that inconsistency is just a
prop for an attitude it's surprising to find on
this list: that our tribe or group is the absolute
and ultimate zenith of human history. But
that's a separate matter.

Best regards, Steve
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InnleggSkrevet: 04 Okt 2004 23:14:33    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

Now Faux News reports that the constitution needs amending to allow Arnold
to become President next. FOFL

Janet


----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank Bullen" <bullenfw41@telkomsa.net>
To: <GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, October 04, 2004 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: The British/English Constitution


Sitat:
Hi!

You wrote

Yes, that's one of your Great Problems.

You don't actually have a Written Constitution per se -- and you need
one.

1. Why?

We Americans saw that deficiency in your Governmental Structure -- so,
after breaking away from you -- we wrote one for ourselves -- and it has
served us very well for over 200 years now.

2. And that's why you keep amending it.

Regards

Frank

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InnleggSkrevet: 05 Okt 2004 01:46:20    Tittel: re: Possible Identification of Juliana, wife of Robert de Ch Svar med Sitat

John R. and Others,

In May 2004, you posted a message postulating that the wife of Robert de
Chaucombe was Juliana de Gournay. You characterized Robert as
"little-known," and indicated he was the son of Hugh de Chaucombe and
Amabilis. I'm wondering if the line can be taken further back?

I've not found much on this line, but DD (page 392) identifies a Matthew de
Chaucombe and provides the following description:

"Held six fees of the Bishop of Lincoln in 1166. In 1208/9 Robert de
Chaucumbe held three parts of a fee of the bishopric in Burton."

The Robert cited would appear to be the same as the one you describe. It is
not clear what the relationship of Matthew is to Robert; although it seems
possible he could be the father of Hugh and grandfather of Robert. If this
is so, perhaps the DD paragraph should be amended to cite the relationship?
Is more known about this family?

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

Sincerely,
Gordon Kirkemo
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InnleggSkrevet: 05 Okt 2004 04:52:31    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

All I was thinking about was the untterly unconstitutionality of the
country's Senate and electorcal college.

There is something evil to be said about an august chamber that can send the
children of the poor to war, based on less than the majority of the people
being represented by the majority vote in the Senate.


"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qf08d.166$C4.5515@eagle.america.net...
Sitat:
Yes, that's one of your Great Problems.

You don't actually have a Written Constitution per se -- and you need
one.

We Americans saw that deficiency in your Governmental Structure -- so,
after breaking away from you -- we wrote one for ourselves -- and it has
served us very well for over 200 years now.

DSH

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7f.4dc950e3.2e91e588@aol.com...

| John Parsons,
|
| Thanks for your further comments and examples on this subject.
|
| I suppose the trick is to apply contemporary laws and customs, rather
than
| impose today's rules, all the same I detect that The Complete Peerage
is guilty
| of this error, all those _de jure_ peers. Not having it written down,
| understanding the British/English constitution is a bit like pinning
down a blob of
| mercury, you think you have it sussed, but then it has changed shape.
|
| Adrian
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InnleggSkrevet: 05 Okt 2004 05:16:06    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

"Freddie Newsgroup" <fredng_2000@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:P%n8d.610319$M95.594295@pd7tw1no...
Sitat:
All I was thinking about was the untterly unconstitutionality of the
country's Senate and electorcal college.


Um... the electoral college and the Senate are both defined in the
Constitution. Therefore, they, by any definition, cannot be
"unconstitutional". They may not be _fair_. But that is a different
matter entirely.

Sitat:
There is something evil to be said about an august chamber that can send
the
children of the poor to war, based on less than the majority of the people
being represented by the majority vote in the Senate.


I wouldn't call it evil. I do call it unfortunate and a situation that
needs to be rectified.



--
Drew
----
The Purpose of the First Amendment is not to protect only comfortable
speech. Such speech needs no protection. It is, rather, the daring, the
profound, the probitive, and yes, the offensive, that needs that shield.
For nothing significant, not in art, culture, or even in politics, has ever
arisen from pandering to the whims of majority.
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InnleggSkrevet: 05 Okt 2004 19:07:42    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 10/4/2004 11:23:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
anicholson16@comcast.net writes:

There is something evil to be said about an august chamber that can send
the
Sitat:
children of the poor to war, based on less than the majority of the people
being represented by the majority vote in the Senate.


I wouldn't call it evil. I do call it unfortunate and a situation that
needs to be rectified.




Nope, not even unfortunate. The people who are being sent to Iraq are not
draftees, they are regular Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, members who have
enlisted of their own free will. They really should have no complaint about
where or when they serve. They agreed to do so upon enlistment.

I am sick and tired of people agreeing to do something and then trying to
weasel out when it is a difficult job they have agreed to do.

Gordon Hale
Grand Prairie, Texas
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InnleggSkrevet: 05 Okt 2004 21:55:28    Tittel: Re: I am back Svar med Sitat

I was a friend of the late Baron Bernd von Maydell. During his life, I
assembled a rudimentary AT for Bernd, especially the Tiesenhausen lines
and connections, but would be interested to learn if you have materials
on the Maydells and others of his Baltic ancestry.

Thank you.

Anthony Hoskins
History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
History and Genealogy Library
Sonoma County Library
3rd and E Streets
Santa Rosa, California 95404

707/545-0831, ext. 562
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 00:12:49    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qf08d.166$C4.5515@eagle.america.net...
Sitat:
Yes, that's one of your Great Problems.

You don't actually have a Written Constitution per se -- and you need
one.

We Americans saw that deficiency in your Governmental Structure -- so,
after breaking away from you -- we wrote one for ourselves -- and it has
served us very well for over 200 years now.

DSH

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7f.4dc950e3.2e91e588@aol.com...

| John Parsons,
|
| Thanks for your further comments and examples on this subject.
|
| I suppose the trick is to apply contemporary laws and customs, rather
than
| impose today's rules, all the same I detect that The Complete Peerage
is guilty
| of this error, all those _de jure_ peers. Not having it written down,
| understanding the British/English constitution is a bit like pinning
down a blob of
| mercury, you think you have it sussed, but then it has changed shape.
|
| Adrian

We have a bill of rights and magna carta. Will that do?
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 01:48:09    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

"Cybernaut" <cybernaut@orion-nebula.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cjv68v$tu8$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Sitat:

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qf08d.166$C4.5515@eagle.america.net...
Yes, that's one of your Great Problems.

You don't actually have a Written Constitution per se -- and you need
one.

We Americans saw that deficiency in your Governmental Structure -- so,
after breaking away from you -- we wrote one for ourselves -- and it has
served us very well for over 200 years now.

DSH

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7f.4dc950e3.2e91e588@aol.com...

| John Parsons,
|
| Thanks for your further comments and examples on this subject.
|
| I suppose the trick is to apply contemporary laws and customs, rather
than
| impose today's rules, all the same I detect that The Complete Peerage
is guilty
| of this error, all those _de jure_ peers. Not having it written down,
| understanding the British/English constitution is a bit like pinning
down a blob of
| mercury, you think you have it sussed, but then it has changed shape.
|
| Adrian

We have a bill of rights and magna carta. Will that do?

Hmmmm.... have you read the Magna Carta recently?
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 01:50:27    Tittel: Re: Possible Identification of Juliana, wife of Robert de Ch Svar med Sitat

Appetizing, John. Any holdings in common or proximate? Any trace of
intermarriage with a 3d family / other sociopolit connections? I'm
with you & promise not to chaucombe up to coincidence, let alone
consign the amabil theory to segrave til more unfolds. Just coming
out of the massive middle-of-Stratford(on-A) housebuild & hope to get
back into use in nottoodist future.

Yrs, C

Sitat:
Thursday, 13 May, 2004


Dear Rosie, Doug, Chris, Cris, Mardi, Brom, Tim, Todd, et al.,

Robert de Chaucombe (d. aft 13 Sept 1246) was the little-known
lord of Chaucombe, Northants. and Rotherby, co. Leics., best known
as the ancestor through his daughters of the Lords Basset (of
Sapcote), Lords Botetourt, Sutton of Dudley, the Lords Segrave
[and thereby of the Howard Dukes of Norfolk] and others too numerous
to contemplate]. HThe daughters of Robert and Juliana (____) de
Chaucombe were Amabil (wife of Gilbert de Segrave) - named for her
paternal grandmother - and Millicent (wife of Ralph Basset of
Sapcote), whose namesake is otherwise not identifiable in CP.
Juliana (or Julian) is not otherwise identified, but a solution to
her identification would obviously affect the ancestry of a great
many individuals.

The juxtaposition of the names Juliana and Millicent as mother
and daughter does, however, suggest a solution. The family that
provides known relationships of individuals with these names is that
of Hugh de Gournay of Mapledurham, co. Oxon. (d. 25 Sep 1214, son of
Hugh de Gournay by Melisende, or Millicent, de Coucy) and his wife
Juliana (identified presently as Juliana de Dammartin, daughter of
Aubri II de Dammartin and Maud de Clermont). A brief chart of the
relationships given by this identification would appear as follows
(the conjectured connection appearing as a broken line: _ _ _ ):


Hugh de = Melisende Aubri de = Maud de
Gournay I de Coucy Dammartin I Clermont
d.ca.1180 I__________ I
I I
Hugh de Gournay = Juliana de Hugh de = Amabilis
d. 25 Sep 1214 I Dammartin Chaucombe I___
____________________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ I
I I I I I I
Millicent Gerard Hugh Anselm Juliana = Robert de
= 2) William (dvp) d. 1238 I Chaucombe
de Cantelou I I d.ca. 1246
d. Feb 1250/1 I_____ I
__I___________________ I __________I_____
I I I I I I
Juliana William [others] Juliana Amabil Millicent
= Robert I = William = 1) Gilbert = Ralph
de Tregoz I Bardolf I de Segrave Basset
I I I I = 2) Roger de I
I I I I I Somery I
V V V I I V
V V


While the above conjecture is short on documentation, the
relationship indicated is reasonable and has no apparent
circumstantial defects:

1. Chronologically, Juliana (wife of Robert de Chaucombe)
makes a good 'fit' as a daughter of Hugh de Gournay and
Juliana de Dammartin. Her husband is contemporaneous
with her likely siblings Millicent (de Gournay) de
Cantelou and Hugh de Gournay, and the grandchildren of
Juliana are reasonably contemporary with the grandchildren
of Millicent and Hugh [see below].

2. Hugh de Gournay and Robert de Chaucombe are of reasonably
equivalent baronial rank. Hugh served as Sheriff of
Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire (1214 at least), and
Hugh de Chaucombe, father of Robert, served as
sheriff of Staffordshire, Warwick and Leicestershire,
1196-98, and again as sheriff of Warwickshire and
Leicestershire, Oct 1204 - July 1207. A union of the son
of Hugh de Chaucombe and a daughter of Hugh de Gournay
would have been unremarkable.

3. There are no instances of consanguineous unions noted
in the identified progeny of Juliana (if properly
identified herein) and of her conjectured siblings, Hugh
and Millicent de Gournay.

I would be most interested if anyone of the group has 'related'
information or documentation, esp. as to any holdings of the
individuals involved that would confirm (or disprove) the
relationships herein conjectured. If confirmed, this identification
would provide further ancestry for the descendants of Robert de
Chaucombe from French and Norman nobility, as well as additional
Capetian and Carolingian ancestry.

Cheers,

John *


____________________________________


1 Hugh V de Gournay
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1148[1]
Death: 25 Sep 1214[2]
Father: Hugh IV de Gournay (ca1094-ca1180)
Mother: Melisende de Coucy

of Mapledurham, Oxon., and Caister, Norfolk
assessed a fine of more than £119 1180 (Pipe Roll xxix p. 19[2])
received a grant of Wendover, Bucks. and Houghton, Beds. from King
Stephen.
Companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade; at the siege of Acre,
1190 (charter to the abbey of Bec confirmed by Richard I, 1190)
opted for England at the pacification of Normandy, 1204 and had
restoration of his lands in Norfolk and elsewhere by decree of King
John, 1206[2]
Sheriff of Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire, 1214
resigned his lands to son Gerard, 1214[2]

Dugdale indicates he died in 1221 (6 Hen. 3),
'for then did the King direct his Precept to William de Cantilupe,
to restore unto Hugh his Son (Girard being dead, as it seems) all
the Lands of his Inheritance, then in his custody.'[3]

"In England, among other manors, Hugh V now held, beside
Mapledurham, Bledlowe in Bucks, some restored manors in Norfolk
(Caister, Cantley, and lands in Aylsham), also Houghton in Beds and
Waltham in Lincs, while in 1210 we find him paying a fine of 700
marks for Wendover.' [Cooke, p. 11[2]]

Spouse: Juliana de Dammartin[1]
Birth: ca 1165[1]
Father: Aubri II de Dammartin (-1200)
Mother: Maud of Clermont (->1200)

Children: Millicent (-1260)
Gerard (->1213)
Hugh VI (-1238)
Anselm
Juliana


1.1a Millicent de Gournay*
----------------------------------------
Death: 1260[1]

she m. 1st Amauri de Montfort, Count of Evreux,
2ndly William de Cantelou[4]

Fine for her marriage by William de Cantelou 'senior', 2 Hen. III
(Dugdale, citing Rot. Pip. 2 H. 3)[3]
her maritagium included lands in Houghton, co. Beds. (fine in 4 Hen.
3 paid by William de Cantelou 'senior' for these lands)

re: her 2nd husband, William de Cantelou:

of Aston Cantlow, co. Warwick
steward of Henry III[2]
"he and Milicent his wife, 'formerly wife of Aumarie, Count of
Evreux,' had dower in Petersfield and Mapledurham.." (CP Vol V
(Gloucester), p. 693)[4]

Spouse: William de Cantelou[4]
Death: 22 Feb 1250[4]
Birth: ? 1185
Father: William de Cantelou (?1158-1239)
Mother: Mesceline de Braci
Marr: 1217[4],[3]

Children: Juliana (->1285)
William (-1254)
Agnes
Thomas (?1218-1282)
Nicholas (-<1266)
John (->1257)
Hugh (->1260)

Other Spouses Amauri de Montfort


1.1a.1 Juliana de Cantelou[4]
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 6 Aug 1285

William de Cantelou d. 1250, leaving sons and
'...Julian, the Wife of Sir Robert de Tregoz.' Dugdale, Baronage,
p. 732 [cites Ex. coll. R. Gl. S.][3]

Spouse: Robert de Tregoz
Death: bef 24 Sep 1268[4]
Father: Robert de Tregoz (-<1215)
Mother: Sibyl de Ewyas (-<1236)
Marr: bef 1 Aug 1245[4]

Children: John (-1300)


1.1a.2 William de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Death: 25 Sep 1254[4]
Burial: 30 Sep 1254, Studley priory, co. Warwick[4]

of Calne, co. Wilts., Houghton, co. Beds. and Aston Cantlow, co.
Warwick [5]

as William de Cantelou 'the Younger', said to have journeyed on a
pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela with Piers de Montfort, 1236

also held a moiety of Badmondisfield, Suffolk[6]

after his death, Prince Edward (the future Edward I) held the
wardship of his heirs (Edward I, p. 3Cool[7]

Spouse: Eve de Braose
Death: bef 28 Jul 1255[4]
Father: William de Braose (-1230)
Mother: Eva le Marshal (-<1246)
Marr: aft 25 Jul 1238[4]

Children: Joan (-<1271)
Millicent (-<1298)
George (1252-1273)


1.1a.3 Agnes de Cantelou
----------------------------------------

parentage as documented in the Boxgrove Stemma Funditoris (cf. CP Vol
XI [St. John], p. 323 and 323n[4])

Spouse: Robert de Saint John
Death: bef 26 Mar 1266[4]
Father: William de Saint John (ca1181-1239)
Mother: Godeheut de Tosny (?) (->1243)

Children: John (-<1302)


1.1a.4 Thomas de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Birth: ? 1218
Death: 25 Aug 1282, Orvieto, Italy[8]
Occ: Bishop of Hereford, 1275-1282

Bishop of Hereford, 1275-1282
also known as 'St. Thomas Cantilupe', or 'St. Thomas of Hereford'

educated at Oxford, then Paris
Chancellor of Oxford University, 1262
supporter of the baronial cause and de Montfort before King Louis,
Amiens, 1259

Chancellor of England following Battle of Lewes, February 1265
(deprived on restoration of Henry III after Battle of Evesham, 1265)

consecrated Bishop of Hereford, 8 Sept 1275

excommunicated in 1282 (by Archbishop of Canterbury); traveled to
Rome to pleasd his own cause before Pope Martin, dying at Orvieto

his relics brought back to Hereford, the site of many miracles
following:
canonized by Pope John XXII, 1320[8]


1.1a.5 Nicholas de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 24 Sep 1266[4]

of Greasley, Notts. and Ilkeston, co. Derby (de jure uxoris)

lst husband of Eustache fitzRalph

Spouse: Eustache FitzHugh
Father: Ralph FitzHugh

Children: William (<1262-<1308)
Joan (->1301)


1.1a.6 John de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 24 Sep 1257[9]

of Snitterfield, co. Warwick

had a grant of a fair and market from King Henry III by charter, 24
Sept 1257[9]

ancestor of Sir Walter de Cantilupe of Snitterfield (fl. 1323)


1.1a.7 Hugh de Cantelou
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 30 Sep 1260[10]
Occ: archdeacon of Gloucester

nominee of Prince Edward to succeed as Bishop of Durham in 1260
(following death of Walter Kirkham) - another elected in his place,
30 Sept 1260[10]


1.1b Millicent de Gournay* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Amauri de Montfort, Earl of Gloucester [1st husband]
Death: bef Nov 1213, d.s.p.[4]
Father: Amauri de Montfort (-1191)
Mother: Mabel of Gloucester
Marr: bef 1204[4]

Other Spouses William de Cantelou


1.2 Gerard de Gournay
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1213, d.v.p.[3]


1.3a Hugh VI de Gournay*[4]
----------------------------------------
Death: 1238[2]
Burial: Langley Abbey, Norfolk[2]

of Mapledurham, Oxon.[4] and Caister, Norfolk
evidently joined the baronial cause against King John (his lands
transferred to William de Cantelou, 1218); had restoration of same,
1222 (mandate to William de Cantelou from King Henry III,
Westminster, 1 May 1222. Excerpta I:86[11])[2]

stated by Dugdale to have married 'Lucy, the Daughter of Robert de
Berkley' [Baronage, p. 430][3] - Noted in CP and elsewhere as
actually being the widow of Robert de Berkeley[4],[12]

had charters granted by King Henry III dated 19 March 1235 for
a market and fair at Cantley, Norfolk:
' (Letter Close) Tues; gr 19 Mar 1235, by K Hen III to
Hugh de Gurnay (CR, 1234-7, p. 60). To be held at the manor.
Mandate to the sh of Norfolk to proclaim the market and cause
it to be established.'[9]

d. before 27 Aug 1239 - mandate to the Sheriff of Oxford concerning
"the manor of Mapledurham which Matilda, who was the wife of 'Hug'
de Gurnay' holds in dower..." [Excerpta I"328][11]

he m. 1stly Lucy,
2ndly Matilda

Spouse: Matilda[2]


1.3b Hugh VI de Gournay* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Lucy
Death: 18 Jan 1234[4]
Marr: aft 13 May 1220[4]

Children: Juliana (-<1295)


1.3b.1 Juliana de Gournay
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 29 Nov 1295[4]

heiress of Mapledurham, Oxon., Cantley, Norfolk & c.[4]
married 1stly Roger de Clifford[2]

identified by John Carmi Parsons as the daughter of Lucy, lst wife of
Hugh de Gournay[12]

On the death of her father Hugh de Gournay,
' William de Cantilupe gave five hundred marks Fine for the
Wardship of Julian, his Daughter and Heir, and the custody of her
Lands.' [ Dugdale, Baronage, p. 430 [de Gournay], p. 732 [de
Cantilupe][3]]

Spouse: William Bardolf
Death: 1 Dec 1289[4]
Father: William Bardolf (<1194-<1274)
Marr: bef 1255[2]

Children: Hugh (ca1259-<1304)
Roger (-<1305)
John (-?1331)
William


1.4 Anselm de Gournay
----------------------------------------

ancestor of Gournay of Beverstone, co. Gloucs. & c.[3]

Spouse: Eve de Ghent
Father: Robert fitz Robert fitz Harding (-1194)
Mother: Hawise de Gournay

Children: Robert (-1269)


1.4.1 Robert de Gournay
----------------------------------------
Death: 1269[13]

of Beverstone, co. Gloucs.

Children: Anselm (-1286)


1.5 Juliana de Gournay (?)
----------------------------------------

'Julian'

re: her husband Robert de Chaucombe:

of Chaucombe, Northants. and Rotherby, co. Leics.

witness with William de Chaucumbe to a grant of land in Rotherby by
William de Redrebi to Chaucombe priory, ca. 1200 (HKF II:75,
citing Stenton, Danelaw Ch. 305)[14]

confirmed his father's gift of 'the whole land of Rotherby' to
Chaucombe priory, '..for the souls of himself, his father
Hugh and his mother Amable...' (HKF II:75, citing
Madox, Formulare, 158)[14]

Grant dated ca 1225:
' Gift from Robert de Chaucumb to the Abbot and Convent of
Stanleia of two virgates of land with all appurtenances in the vill
of Cubinton' which the same Abbot and Convent had in perpetual farm
by the gift of the Prior of the Convent of Chaucumbe.
Witnesses: Thomas de Ardena, Geoffrey de Semilli, William de
Essesho, Hugh de Upton', William de Annersi, Simon de Cubinton',
Henry his son, John de Stanleia, Thomas de Finham, Henry de
Suckeberge, Osbert de Suckeberge, Alexander de Meleburne, and many
others.
[ Seal on tag: circular, white. A knight on horseback carrying a
falcon on his right wrist. Legend: SI[GILLUM ROBERTI DE CHAV]COMBA.
Endorsed: i) Robertus de Chaucomb' [AG] ii) Warr' . [PRO,
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
[DR10/468 - DR10/970], Cubbington: DR10/500[15] ]

his daughter and son-in-law Gilbert de Segrave fined
concerning a debt he owed in annual rents to the King,
13 Sept 30 Hen III (1246). Excerpta e Rotulis Finium
I:462[11]

cf. CP II:6 (sub Basset of Sapcote)[4]

Spouse: Robert de Chaucombe[4]
Death: bef 13 Sep 1246[11]
Father: Hugh de Chaucombe (->1181)
Mother: Amabil

Children: Amabil
Millicent


1.5.1a Amabil de Chaucombe*
----------------------------------------
Burial: Chaucombe Priory[4]

coheiress of Chaucombe, Northants.[4]

"Gilb'o de Seg've et Amabil' uxi ejus filie et hedi Rob'i de
Chaucumb' ", fined concerning a debt her father owed in annual rents
to the King, 13 Sept 30 Hen III (1246). Excerpta e Rotulis Finium
I:462[11]

made a gift of land and rents in Rotherby, co. Leics. to Chaucombe
priory (HKF II:75, citing Mon. Angl. vi. 428)[14]

had dower lands in Seagrave, Mountsorrel and a third part of Sileby,
co. Leics. and in Whiston, co. Staffs.[14]

married 1stly Gilbert de Segrave,
2ndly Roger de Somery

Spouse: Gilbert de Segrave
Death: bef 8 Oct 1254, Pons, Poitou[4]
Father: Stephen de Segrave (-1241)
Mother: Rohese le Despenser
Marr: bef 30 Sep 1231[4]

Children: Nicholas (<1238-<1295)
Alice

Other Spouses Roger de Somery


1.5.1a.1 Nicholas de Segrave
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 12 Nov 1295[4]
Birth: bef 17 Dec 1238[4],[14]
Burial: Chaucombe Priory, Northants.
Occ: Lord Segrave

of Segrave, co. Leicester and Chaucombe, co. Northants
supporter of de Montfort against the King; commanded the Londoners at
the Battle of Lewes, 14 May 1264
wounded and captured at the Battle of Evesham, 4 Aug 1265, and his
lands granted to Edmund of Lancaster[4]
in league with the Earl of Gloucester and still in rebellion Apr
1267, but pardoned and admitted into the King's peace 1 Jul 1267[7]

served King Edward as a household knight[7]

summoned to Parliament on 24 June 1295 by writ directed 'Nich(ola)s
de Segrave seniori', whereby held to have become Lord Segrave[4]

Spouse: Maud[4]

Children: Sir John (ca1256-<1325)
Nicholas (-1321)
Henry
Eleanor
Gilbert (-1316)
Amabel


1.5.1a.2 Alice de Segrave
----------------------------------------

cf. DNB ['Gilbert de Segrave'[16]]

Spouse: William Mauduit
Death: 8 Jan 1267, d.s.p.[4]
Father: William Mauduit (-<1256)
Mother: Alice de Newburgh (-<1263)


1.5.1b Amabil de Chaucombe* (See above)
----------------------------------------

Spouse: Roger de Somery
Death: 26 Aug 1273[5]
Father: Sir Ralph de Somery (-<1212)
Mother: Margaret le Marshal
Marr: bef 1255[4]

Children: Roger (1255-<1291)


1.5.1b.1 Roger de Somery
----------------------------------------
Birth: 24 Jun 1255[4]
Death: bef 12 Oct 1291[4]

of Chipping Camden, co. Glocs., Sedgley, co. Staffs. and Dudley, co.
Worcester

summoned on 14 July 1287 to Gloucester[4]

Spouse: Agnes
Death: bef 24 Nov 1308[4]

Children: John (1279-<1322)
Margaret (ca1290-)
Joan (ca1292->1322)


1.5.2 Millicent de Chaucombe
----------------------------------------

younger daughter and coheir of he father

cf. CP II:6[4]

Spouse: Ralph Basset
Death: ca 1282[4]
Father: Ralph Basset

Children: Simon (-1295)


1.5.2.1 Simon Basset
----------------------------------------
Death: 1295

of Sapcote, co. Leics.

summoned cum equis et armis to accompany the King to Gascony, 14 June
1294[4]

cf. CP II:6-7[4]

Children: Ralph (-ca1322)


1. "Stevens/Southworth Medieval Database," James Allen Stevens,
Rootsweb, created 14 May 2000 [extracted 25 April 2001],
www.gendex.com/users/jast/D0026/G0000090.html.
2. "The Early History of Mapledurham," Alfred Hands Cooke, M.A.,
Sc.D., Oxfordshire Record Society, Oxford: Oxfordshire Record
Society, 1925, *orig. cite by Timothy Powys-Lybbe, tim@powys.org
[tim@southfrm.demon.co.uk], p. 11 cited by T. Powys-Lybbe (re:
Hugh V de Gournay).
3. William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms, "The Baronage of England,"
Tho. Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675
[reprint New York, 1977].
4. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage,"
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain
and the United Kingdom.
5. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
Faris).
6. W. A. Copinger, M.A., LL.D., F.S.A., "The Manors of Suffolk:
Notes on Their History and Devolution," London: T. F. Unwin,
1905-1911, 7 Vols.
7. "Edward I," Michael Prestwich, New Haven: Yale University Press,
1997 [in England, originally 1988 -Methuen], Yale English
Monarchs series.
8. "St. Thomas of Hereford (Thomas de Cantelupe)," Edwin Burton,
Robert Appleton Co. (online edition, 1999: Kevin Knight), Vol
XIV (de Cantelupe): 1912, transcribed by Thomas M. Barrett,
http://www.newadvent.org
9. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
10. Margaret Howell, "Eleanor of Provence," Oxford: Blackwell
Publishers Ltd, 1998.
11. Charles Roberts, ed., "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium," The
Commissioners of the Public Records of the Kingdom, Vol I
(1216-1246), 1835, full title: Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in
Turri Londinensi asservatis, Henrico Tertio Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
12. John Carmi Parsons, "More Angevin Bastards," Sept 7, 1998,
GEN-MEDIEVAL-L@rootsweb.com.
13. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
14. William Farrer, Litt.D., "Honors and Knights' Fees," London:
Spottiswoode, Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:
Vol II: Chester; Huntingdon, Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer,
Warenne.
15. "Public Record Office Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
16. "Gilbert de Segrave [article]," Dictionary of National Biography,
Oxford Univ. Press, p. 1136 : Gilbert de Segrave.



* John P. Ravilious


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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 04:35:13    Tittel: Re: Roger Mortimer: Ian Mortimer's biography Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 10/5/2004 4:08:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
batruth@hotmail.com writes:
think Edward NOT reappearing on the political scene is the strongest
evidence that he was murdered in 1327. Even before Roger Mortimer's
execution in 1330, there was family (Henry of Lancaster, Edmund of
Kent, sister Mary at Amesbury) whom he could have approached for
assistance. I have a hard time grasping the idea that he became a
wandering monk and allowed the deception of a false death and burial
to stand, especially after 1330.


Dear Brad,

I firmly agree with what you iterated above. There are more family members
involved in this theory that definitely would have known and reacted if Edward
II were not murdered in 1327.

David de Strabolgi earl of Athol [Feb. 1, 1308 - Nov. 30, 1335] would have
responded and been involved in any plot to restore the king. His aunt by
marriage [the former wife of John Comyn earl of Buchan, his mother's brother] was
Margaret Wake of Liddel whose second husband was Edmond of Woodstock, earl of
Kent that was executed for his belief that Edward II was still alive on March
19, 1330. Margaret was confined after the treasonous act to Salisbury Castle:

Calendar of documents relating to Scotland preserved in Her Majesties public
record office, London, Vol. III 1307-1357, edited by Joseph Bain, Edinburgh,
1887:

#1000. March 14, 1330
The king commands Sir Nicol de Langeford and Roger 'Atte Asshe' to arrest the
person of the countess of Kent in Arundel Castle, with her 'joialx' &c.
there, and take her to Salesbury Castle for her safe custody, allowing her no
attendance on the way but two 'damoiselles' and her children. Winchester. [Privy
Seals (tower) 4 Edw. III, File. 7]

Her brother Thomas Wake of Liddel was also initially accused of treason but
later acquitted by the king.

#1011. Dec. 9, 1330
The king commands the escheator citra Trent to restore the lands of Thomas
Wake of Lidel, which had been seized on suspicion of his adherence to the late
Edmund earl of Kent, from which he has exonerated himself. Westminster. Similar
to the escheator of 5 counties. [Close Rolls, 4 Edw. III, m.8]

Under Edward II, David de Strabolgi earl of Athol father of the above
[1288-Dec. 28, 1326] had attained much property and favor from the king. He obtained
the estate of Chilham in Kent which had been the ancestral land of his
grandmother Isabel de Dover that had been given to Bartholomew Badlesmere and his
wife Magaret de Clare [niece of Edward II's brother-in-law Gilbert de Clare]. He
also was pardoned from all debts incurred by the previous lords of the
property back to Rohese de Dover.

#128. March 18, 1310
Indenture bearing that whereas the king had granted to Bartholomew de
Badlesmere and Margaret his wife the castle and manor of Chilham with all its manors
in Kent and elsewhere - which Alexander de Balliol held for life by courtesy
of the heritage of Isabella his wife, whose son and heir John, late earl of
Athol, has been hanged for treason. Whereby the fee reverted to the king as an
escheat after Alexander's death and had commanded Alexander to do fealty to
Bartholomew and Margaret, that he had done so on this day, and moreover, delivered
to them the said castle and manor appurtenant and others in Canterbury and
Kent, with £40 rent from the manor of Chilingford in Essex, and all else he had
by courtesy, for which they had paid down 100 marks and granted him an annuity
of 230 marks. The parties seals appended at Westminster, 18th March 3rd year.
[Close Rolls, 3 Edw. II m. 9, dorso]

#742. Nov. 29, 1321
David de Strabolgi Earl of Athol, declares that, as the king has granted to
him in perpetuity the castle, manor, and honour of Chilham in Kent, he will aid
and serve him in all his enterprises, on pain of forfeiture.
Pountfreit-on-Thames, 29th November 15th year. [Close Rolls, 15 Edw. II, m. 21 dorso]

#863. Feb. 25, 1325
Writ commanding the treasurer and barons to exonerate David de Strabolgi earl
of Athol, to whom he had granted the castle, manor and honour of Chilham on
28th November 1321, from the debts of Rose de Dovorre, Alexander de Balliol and
Isabella his wife, or Bartholomew de Badlesmere the last holder before the
earl. Westminster. [Exchequer, Q.R. Memoranda, 18 Edw. II, m. 44] On 11th April
following the earl is discharged of all his debts at Exchequer, as he is going
to Gascony on the king's service. Beauly [New Forest]. [M. 48]

#865. Feb. 26, 1325
The king supercedes all demands in Exchequer against the castle and honour of
Chilham, for the debts of Rose de Dovor, Alexander de Balliol and Isabella
his wife, and Bartholomew de Badlesmere, its' successive owners prior to 28th
November 1321, when he granted the castle and honour to David de Strabolgy earl
of Athol, grandson of Isabella de Dover. Westminster. [ Close Rolls, 18 Edw.
II, m. 16]

#872. May 27, 1325
Petition by Margaret Dumfraville 'Dame de Badlesmere' to Master Henry de
Clif' asking him to receive Sir John de Wisshaghe or Hugh de Berwick as her
attorney in the 'seute' before him in chancery by David earl of Athol, regarding the
castle, manor and honour of Chilham. If she can do anything for him she will
do so willingly and from the heart. Hameldene, 27th May. [Chancery Portfolios
( Scotland) no. 41/164]

He also went to France [as did his wife Joanna Comyn] on the business of
Edward II while the overthrow was being planned by Isabella and Roger Mortimer:

#864. Feb. 26, 1325
Warrant on the treasury to pay the king's cousin David de Strabolgi earl of
Athol, who is going on his service with 3 knights and 11 esquires to Aquitaine
for a quarter from the day he 'hoisted sail' £113 15s. Tower of London. [
Liberate, 18 Edw. II, m. 3]

#874. Sept. 4, 1325
Safe conduct for Johanna countess of Athol, till Christmas next. Dover.
[Patent Rolls, 19 Edw. II, p.1, m.28]

She was going to Amiens to join her husband.

When Joanna Comyn died her son was in the king's service in Gascony:

#988. June 29, 1329
The king sends the keepers of his great seal a petition by Sir David earl of
Athol, for remedy as they see expedient. Eltham.
Petition by David earl of Athol, son and heir of Johanna widow of the late
David earl of Athol, heir to a quarter of the inheritance of the late Aymer de
Valence earl of Pembroke complaining that Hugh le Despencers 'father and son'
by their masterful proceedings in espousing the part of Elizabeth Comyn, and
acquiring the ward of John de Hastings heir, the other coheirs, had obtained all
the best castles and manors, and left Johanna with lands in Northumberland
overvalued, with the castle of Castleacre and others 'dotyves' lands, which were
soon recovered by the earl of Warrenne by a suit of novel disseisin. That the
petitioner, who was in Gascony in the king's service at his mother's death,
was unable to challenge these proceedings of his own right, but now asks that
the case be reopened, if the king please. [No date][Privy Seals (tower), 3 Edw.
III, File. 8]

Joanna Comyn died shortly before July 24, 1326.

After the ascension of Edward III, David de Strabolgi earl of Athol had
difficultly obtaining all of his inheritance from the king. Even though an
inquisition was made to prove the age of the earl, the king still stated it wasn't
proved and most of his lands were granted as a 'special favor' from Edward III.

#1001 Jan. 26-April 2, 1330.
Writ commanding the escheator ultra Trent to hold an inquiry into the age of
David de Strabolgi earl of Athol, son and heir of the late David de Strabolgi
earl of Athol, who has petitioned the king for his heritage. Eltham, 26th
January 4th year. (Endorsement) That Isabella de Vescy and Richard Talbot,
summoned under the writ to appear for their interest, made no appearance.
[Extracts]
'Probacio' taken at Newcastle-upon-Tyne on 2nd April following, by the
escheator and 12 jurors examined on oath.
(1) Robert de Milneburne, the first juror, 50 years of age and more, says
that David was born on 1st February in the ____year of the king's father, at
Newcastle-on-Tyne, and baptized in the church of St. Nicholas there, Guyschard de
Charron junior and Master John de Hadyngton being his sponsors, and was 21
years old on 1st February last. He knows this because Thomas de Milneburne his
father died on ____ next before that day and on his going to Newcastle to buy
wax for his burial, he saw David baptized with great solemnity after......
(2) John de Plesis, second juror, 50 years of age and more, concurs with
Robert in Omnibus. He knows because he has ......
(3) Robert de Haukewell, third juror, ut supra, concurs. Knows the date as
his daughter Alicia was born the same day....
(4) Thomas de Swetoppe, fourth juror, aged ut suora, concurs. Knows the date
because his sister Isolde died the same day, whose obit is inserted in the
calendar of said St. Nicolas church. He saw David baptized there with great
solemnity, the priest scattering the water very freely ('Sacerdote apppergente
aquam abundiam superflue')......
(5) [Nicholas de Eland], the fifth juror, aged 40 years, concurs with the
first. Says that David, immediately after baptism, was taken with his nurse to
his father's house in Eland, and there nursed for 3 years. He himself was 19
years of age.
[The remaining seven jurors concur for various reasons. This part of the
document much mutilated.] [Seals Lost] [Inq. p.m. 4 Edw. III (1st Nos.) no. 41]
Greatly defaced and part lost.

#1003. May 6, 1330
The king of special grace grants to David de Strabolgi earl of Athol, son and
heir of the deceased David de Strabolgi earl of Athol, and of his countess
Johanna, one of the cousins and heirs of the late Aymar de Valence earl of
Pembroke, although he has not proved his age, the castle and manor of Odogh in
Ireland, and others held by his father and mother of her purparty. Woodstock.
[Patent Rolls, 4 Edw. III, p.1, m.15]

#1008. Aug. 7, 1330
The king to John Darcy lord of Werk in Tyndale or his lieutenant. Commands
him to give seisin to David de Strabolgi earl of Athol, as heir of his mother
Johanna, elder sister of the late John Comyn of Badenagh, of the site of Tyrsete
manor [and other lands particularly specified] in Tyndale in presence of
Richard Talbot and Elizabeth his wife, the younger sister and coheir of John
Comyn; the king respiting the earl's homage till the quinzaine of Michaelmas next
of special favour, and reserving to Margaret, who was the wife of John Comyn,
her dower therefrom. Clyve. [Close Rolls, 4 Edw. III, m.25]

David de Strabolgi earl of Athol was accused twice of treasonous behavior
[neither of them true] by Edward III and had nothing to gain by keeping Edward
III on the throne and Edward III was leery of his loyalty from the beginning of
his reign.

#927. July 28, 1327
The king notwithstanding the minority of Sir David de Strabolgi, son and heir
of David de Strabolgi late earl of Athol, yet for the good services of his
ancestors in time past, and the good hopes of the same from himself in the
future, has taken his homage and restored all his lands, and commands the
chancellor to issue letters accordingly. Hautetwysel. [Privy Seals (tower) 1 Edw. III.
File 24]

#1016. Jan. 2, 1331
The king exonerates David earl of Athol from all suspicion of being concerned
in the late armed rising against the king with other magnates at Bedford, as
he submitted to the king and agreed to pay £5000 in chancery at the king's
discretion; and frees him of the said sum, for which a summons of Exchequer had
issued. Guldeford. [Patent Rolls, 4 Edw. III, p.2, m. 18]

#1174. Aug. 24, 1335
The king commands the sheriffs of the counties of Hertford, Lincoln, Kent,
Northumberland, and Norfolk, and the bailiffs of the Liberty of Werk in Tyndale,
to restore to David de Strabolgi earl of Athol, all the lands he forfeited
for joining the Scots, as he has shown the king he did so to save his life. St.
John's town. [Close Rolls, 9 Edw. III, m. 9].

If Edward II were alive why wouldn't David de Strabolgi have known and acted?
This makes no sense.

Also why wouldn't the Scots have used this to their advantage? The treaty of
Northampton was not made until May 1328 which acknowledged the declaration of
Arbroath and the sovereignty of Robert the Bruce. If Edward II were still
alive in 1327 this could have been politically useful to the Scots to undermine
the power of Edward IIII. Edward II was definitely a weaker enemy to combat
that his son.

Regards,
MichaelAnne
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 07:56:09    Tittel: Re: Roger Mortimer: Ian Mortimer's biography Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 10/5/2004 8:53:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

Sitat:
This phenomenon was not at all
uncommon - most medieval kingdoms had at least one concealed king,
usually asleep in a cave or on an island waiting to reappear at the hour
of his people's direst need. And inevitably the need came but the king
didn't - Elvis had left the national building after all.


So prior to Edward II's "death", who was England's concealed king?
Will
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 07:57:38    Tittel: Re: Roger Mortimer: Ian Mortimer's biography Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 10/5/2004 8:53:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
p_m_stewart@msn.com writes:

Sitat:
On the other hand, making known in the face of rumours that they could
see the surface appearance of the corpse, i.e. primarily the face which
was all that they could know the deceased from anyway, but that they
were not permitted to defile the body by further or (literally) deeper
inspection, would be quite natural in the circumstances.

Is it really certain that these notaries would actually know what Edward
looked like in the first place?
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 09:23:36    Tittel: Re: Roger Mortimer: Ian Mortimer's biography Svar med Sitat

Arthur would be the prototypical
"hidden king" of England, wouldn't he ?


Best regards, Steve
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 09:24:14    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:ZoG8d.491$Kj1.341@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
Sitat:

"Cybernaut" <cybernaut@orion-nebula.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cjv68v$tu8$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qf08d.166$C4.5515@eagle.america.net...
Yes, that's one of your Great Problems.

You don't actually have a Written Constitution per se -- and you need
one.

We Americans saw that deficiency in your Governmental Structure -- so,
after breaking away from you -- we wrote one for ourselves -- and it
has
served us very well for over 200 years now.

DSH

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7f.4dc950e3.2e91e588@aol.com...

| John Parsons,
|
| Thanks for your further comments and examples on this subject.
|
| I suppose the trick is to apply contemporary laws and customs,
rather
than
| impose today's rules, all the same I detect that The Complete
Peerage
is guilty
| of this error, all those _de jure_ peers. Not having it written
down,
| understanding the British/English constitution is a bit like pinning
down a blob of
| mercury, you think you have it sussed, but then it has changed
shape.
|
| Adrian

We have a bill of rights and magna carta. Will that do?

Hmmmm.... have you read the Magna Carta recently?


It's gotta be better than the US Constitution. They keep having to amend
theirs all the time! Smile)

Surreyman
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 09:38:47    Tittel: Re: Roger Mortimer: Ian Mortimer's biography Svar med Sitat

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Sitat:
In a message dated 10/5/2004 10:24:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, DPCP1@aol.com
writes:


Arthur would be the prototypical "hidden king" of England, wouldn't he ?
Best regards, Steve


Are you suggesting there's a source that quotes a myth that Arthur is alive
and ready to come back to lead England to victory in its time of crisis?

Of course there is, "rex quondam, rexque futurus" - remember the book
"The Once and Future King".

Peter Stewart
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 10:15:07    Tittel: Re: Roger Mortimer: Ian Mortimer's biography Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 10/5/2004 10:24:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, DPCP1@aol.com
writes:

Sitat:
Arthur would be the prototypical "hidden king" of England, wouldn't he ?
Best regards, Steve

Are you suggesting there's a source that quotes a myth that Arthur is alive
and ready to come back to lead England to victory in its time of crisis?

Will
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 10:31:07    Tittel: Re: Roger Mortimer: Ian Mortimer's biography Svar med Sitat

In a message dated 10-06-04 1:15:45 AM Central Daylight Time,
WJhonson@aol.com writes:

Sitat:
Are you suggesting there's a source that quotes a myth that Arthur is alive

and ready to come back to lead England to victory in its time of crisis?



Think I heard it on CNN, maybe ?
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 16:32:58    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:ZoG8d.491$Kj1.341@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

Sitat:
We have a bill of rights and magna carta. Will that do?

Hmmmm.... have you read the Magna Carta recently?

Especially the bits about 'wardships' being the sole property of the crown

until the ward comes of age, and the stuff about not allowing women to give
uncorroborated testimony in court is a touch out of date as well...

Oh, and what's considered a 'knight of the shire' these days...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 16:56:38    Tittel: Re: Roger Mortimer: Ian Mortimer's biography Svar med Sitat

And maybe pigs could fly -- if they just had wings.

DSH

"Gordon Banks" <geb@gordonbanks.com> wrote in message
news:1097089768.32729.6.camel@localhost.localdomain...

| I am still a bit puzzled at the assertion that the beheading of Edmund
| of Woodstock was evidence that Edward II was really dead. It would
seem
| that if someone came forth after the JFK assassination claiming JFK
was
| still alive and LBJ had them executed it would be more suspicious than
| if he just ignored them. Of course, I don't know the details, maybe
| Edmund tried to overthrow Edward III in order to promote Edward II
| coming back or maybe they thought Edmund wanted the throne himself.
|
| As to why Edward II wouldn't have attempted a restoration, maybe he'd
| had enough. His life as King wasn't all that pleasant, after all.
Maybe
| they made him an offer he couldn't refuse. Sort of like the witness
| protection program.
|
| Just guessing, I don't really have a dog in this fight.
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 18:52:20    Tittel: Re: Roger Mortimer: Ian Mortimer's biography Svar med Sitat

WJhonson wrote:
Sitat:
So prior to Edward II's "death", who was England's concealed king?

There were various traditions that King Harold survived the Battle of
Hastings and became a pilgrim and/or monk, eventually dying at Chester (or
Canterbury). Perhaps a kind of literary precedent for the tradition about
Edward II?

Chris Phillips
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 18:59:02    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<y4N8d.152$Vl2.58@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>...
Sitat:
"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:ZoG8d.491$Kj1.341@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

"Cybernaut" <cybernaut@orion-nebula.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cjv68v$tu8$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qf08d.166$C4.5515@eagle.america.net...
Yes, that's one of your Great Problems.

You don't actually have a Written Constitution per se -- and you need
one.

We Americans saw that deficiency in your Governmental Structure -- so,
after breaking away from you -- we wrote one for ourselves -- and it
has
served us very well for over 200 years now.

DSH

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7f.4dc950e3.2e91e588@aol.com...

| John Parsons,
|
| Thanks for your further comments and examples on this subject.
|
| I suppose the trick is to apply contemporary laws and customs,
rather
than
| impose today's rules, all the same I detect that The Complete
Peerage
is guilty
| of this error, all those _de jure_ peers. Not having it written
down,
| understanding the British/English constitution is a bit like pinning
down a blob of
| mercury, you think you have it sussed, but then it has changed
shape.
|
| Adrian

We have a bill of rights and magna carta. Will that do?

Hmmmm.... have you read the Magna Carta recently?


It's gotta be better than the US Constitution. They keep having to amend
theirs all the time! Smile)

Surreyman

Dear Surreyman,

It isn't being formally "amended" "all the time." The amending
process was made difficult precisely to make amendments relatively few
in number. The only thing more difficult to accomplish would be the
redrawing of state boundaries, which modern settlement patterns have
rendered almost totally obsolete.

What's going on with the U.S. Constitution is that the Federal
Government lacks any constitutional authority at all to do a lot of
things which they are now doing.

Because the amendment process is so difficult, they simply make it up
as they go along, and the Supreme Court either looks the other way, or
declines to rule their actions unconstitutional.

If we prosecuted politicians for failing to carry out their oaths to
"preserve, protect, and defend" the Constitution, we'd overload the
federal prisons.

Daniel MacGregor
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 19:08:28    Tittel: Re: The British/English Constitution Svar med Sitat

"a.spencer3" <a.spencer3@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:<y4N8d.152$Vl2.58@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>...
Sitat:
"Martin Reboul" <martin.reboul@SPAMFUKvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:ZoG8d.491$Kj1.341@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...

"Cybernaut" <cybernaut@orion-nebula.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cjv68v$tu8$1@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...

"D. Spencer Hines" <poguemidden@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:qf08d.166$C4.5515@eagle.america.net...
Yes, that's one of your Great Problems.

You don't actually have a Written Constitution per se -- and you need
one.

We Americans saw that deficiency in your Governmental Structure -- so,
after breaking away from you -- we wrote one for ourselves -- and it
has
served us very well for over 200 years now.

DSH

ADRIANCHANNING@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7f.4dc950e3.2e91e588@aol.com...

| John Parsons,
|
| Thanks for your further comments and examples on this subject.
|
| I suppose the trick is to apply contemporary laws and customs,
rather
than
| impose today's rules, all the same I detect that The Complete
Peerage
is guilty
| of this error, all those _de jure_ peers. Not having it written
down,
| understanding the British/English constitution is a bit like pinning
down a blob of
| mercury, you think you have it sussed, but then it has changed
shape.
|
| Adrian

We have a bill of rights and magna carta. Will that do?

Hmmmm.... have you read the Magna Carta recently?


It's gotta be better than the US Constitution. They keep having to amend
theirs all the time! Smile)

Surreyman


Don't forget Magna Carta was amended too! Edward's version is not the
same as John's. Still both are riviting reads :)

John Kane
Perth Ontario
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InnleggSkrevet: 06 Okt 2004 19:32:32    Tittel: Re: Roger Mortimer: Ian Mortimer's biography Svar med Sitat

WJhonson@aol.com wrote:
Sitat:
In a message dated 10/5/2004 10:24:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time, DPCP1@aol.com
writes:


Arthur would be the prototypical "hidden king" of England, wouldn't he ?
Best regards, Steve


Are you suggesting there's a source that quotes a myth that Arthur is alive
and ready to come back to lead England to victory in its time of crisis?

Will


There certainly have been 20th century novels (or, if
you prefer fantasies or sci-fi books) in which the
major plot line is just that, or close. An example, is "The Drawing of
the Dark" by Tim Powers (he doesn't save England, but some other place.)
(A highly recommended book, of its sort. Power's "The Anubis Gates",
also with a semi-historical medieval part, is the best time travel book
I have ever read.)

Doug McDonald
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